Femmes: How do you like to be treated on a date?

[firegal]

Maybe I didn't read enough of the past post.....

But treateted on a date to me is elementary....in the BF world


Kind ,courteous,civilous,like a lady....or a queen....

I could go on and on....as we define the BF dance...


All I know is she should ALWAYS feel like the lady that she is.... So I feel like the butch I am.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by firegal

....in the BF world

like a lady....or a queen....

I could go on and on....as we define the BF dance...


All I know is she should ALWAYS feel like the lady that she is.... So I feel like the butch I am.

That's not my definition of butch-femme. I definitely don't date folks who need to treat me like a queen. That would not work. I am still femme and still date butches. I don't enjoy the chivalry thing or any of that. Still femme. Still date butches.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Martina

That's not my definition of butch-femme. I definitely don't date folks who need to treat me like a queen. That would not work. I am still femme and still date butches. I don't enjoy the chivalry thing or any of that. Still femme. Still date butches.

Isn't that the beauty of this site,we can have differences in our definitions and share them.What works for one may not be the preference for another.Doesn't mean one is better or worse.

I must admit that I forgot that you sometimes need to be cautious here as to what terms are used because the interpretation here sometimes ends up way left of where the intent was meant to be.

I would like to retract the term queen....after some thought it really didn't capture what I meant..all I mean was to have them feel special,appreciated,kind,polite,enjoyment,laughter ,....Yada,Yada Yada..

I enjoy the old chivalry thing......still butch...still like femmes.

The term "treat like a lady" ..... I was raised to have that mean ,show respect,don't dismiss,kind,polite,thoughtfullness. If it sounds kinda old school I think it's because I kinda am.

I may not use the most current definition or the current more modern term,but I think my intent I described above.

I just felt I needed to clarify a bit what I meant.....Thanks for listening.

[Uli]

Lady is such an antiquated, oppressive term. Discovering femme freed me from all that bullshit, thank god. I can cuss like a sailor, refuse to cross my legs, and I'm still a femme. Fuck "lady". *spit*

Edited to be more on topic: On a date, I like to be treated in a way that is authentic to the person I'm on the date with, so I can figure out, in an honest environment, if that person suits me and I them. Seems simple enough, no act, no fancy moves or games, just be.

[Gemme]

I don't feel that generally descriptive terms bear any weight on their own, so words like lady or proper or whatever are not derogatory or offensive at all.

We all have our personal ticks but it's just as offensive for someone to say that lady is an "ewww" word as it is when someone says another's sexual practices are "yucky" or offensive.

So, here's to hoping that folks are treated however they prefer to be treated through the holidays, 2014 and beyond.

[Uli]

I didn't say "lady" was derogatory or offensive. I said it was antiquated and oppressive. As in, it is a word that has been used to shame women and 'put them in their place' through multiple eras. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to oppress a person or group of people with one's personal sexual practices, unless rape counts as a personal, sexual practice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I do share Ulis feelings about that word. I know lots of femmes like to "play the lady" to some knight of a butch in a fairy tale world they like to play. That is all well and good. But in many many real world places, the term lady, still pertains to it's class origins.

It's a *Title* of ownership of lands and aristocracy.

I just lived in a place that still has that title. And I know a lot of Americans think it's a quaint and shit to have a queen and barons and princesses but as someone who is NOT a royalist and would like the queens head off my money I would like to remind people that the term "Lady" is a term of privilege and class restriction. And often used as a word of shaming, even here. As in "someone who does not behave like a Lady" to shame someone for their "lack of class"

What do people really think that phrase really means, exactly? "Lack of Class" where exactly does everyone think it comes from?
It means you are common. As in not privileged and land owning.

This is very real stuff. Not just a past thing. It still goes on and I see it here and in many places where people think femmes should act like "Ladies" and butches their keep of their "honour"
Really? Do people have no honest idea that what they are playing at may be a lovely fairy game between two people in a novel fantasy, which is fabulous, but the word, in actual functioning in the real world outside of that, isn't very nice.

When butches are referred to as ladies I suspect it's not just the gender of the term that chafes to but the behaviour it also implies.

I chafe at it. I don't like it. I was never fond of it and the being constantly told to act like one, to not swear or be vulgar, cause that's not lady like. And if you aren't lady like then you have no class (privilege, back again) and don't deserve any respect.

It's a completely loaded term.

Utterly. And it often hold my tongue when it gets bandied about like it means nothing but something light and fluffy and playing princess. It pisses me off at times but I know 90% of people reading my words here won't get it or don't want to so I generally don't bother.

But Uli did not call anyone names or tell people they were worthless... She expressed her political distain at a WORD and it's oppressive use. Not a person. she may have not phrased it in a very careful way as best to avoid offending anyone's feelings, but I'm guessing that expressing a hatred of a word for good reason, people are not so incredibly delicate that expressing hatred of a word for it's political implications won't cause people to wail and bleed under their beds.

[imperfect_cupcake]

(By the way Gemme that's not directed at you. That's me ranting at the entirety of the site, the butch-femme groups I left, the universe and the moon)

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Uli

I didn't say "lady" was derogatory or offensive. I said it was antiquated and oppressive. As in, it is a word that has been used to shame women and 'put them in their place' through multiple eras. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to oppress a person or group of people with one's personal sexual practices, unless rape counts as a personal, sexual practice.

Actually, many folks even here have been shamed due to their sexual practices. Hell, our whole community has been shamed due to our sexual practices. That's why that came to mind for me.

You are right. My apologies for not using your exact words. For me, the sentiment is the same. Oppressive things are offensive to me, for example.

Many people, especially the younger generation, feel that the terms butch and femme are antiquated. While I don't feel that that mindset is opppressive by itself, it could be if someone decided to shame another for being one or the other.

Our community has had to take back lots of terms and words that have been used to oppress and shame us. Dyke and bull dagger and queer come to mind. Why not lady too? Why does lady have to be a measure of something? Why can't it just be?

Good discussion.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

(By the way Gemme that's not directed at you. That's me ranting at the entirety of the site, the butch-femme groups I left, the universe and the moon)

No worries! I always like to hear what's on your mind. We're all going to have words and phrases that rub us the wrong way, be they oppressive or offensive, both, or neither.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thanks Gemme, glad you get my kvetching lol.

Because lady, used in most cases, is still a measure of how much class someone has. Lady still isn't just a word in our community. What's the opposite of a lady? Ask. You'll get answers. Not very nice ones. It's still very much a measure.

I've actually given up the ID of femme cause I personally can't deal with the concepts attached to it anymore, in North America. "Lady" concepts by those within the community is actually a rather big part of that for me.

I have less argument over the term "lady" outside of the butch-femme community. Far, far less. I get a lot of nods and agreement from most people. But not butch-femme on line groups. One on one? I get less argument. I get a facial expression of "ok I see your point of why it bugs you."

I would be more interested in reclaiming the word as not being a measure of anything, if it wasn't constantly being used that way in my daily life. Saying "I'm a lady" does not shock, does not challenge and does not make people think. It just looks like I'm buying in to the hierarchical pretence of privileged behaviour. Telling people "I'm not lady" is what challenges them to think about it.

Queer and dyke did not do that. It challenged people on their insults to a sexuality. That's the difference for me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love this conversation that is taking place, I happen to use "Lady" in my Leather because I find it funny, dirty, and it's a sort of empowerment for me to wear it and use it in my kink....


I use *Lady* in particular because it's convenient for me, now what really pisses me off as a Femme is when someone wants to super impose certain kinds of *behaviors* that are deemed to be *ladylike*... I personally do not like being forced into a peg, or design to fit someone's fucking ego boost.


You want someone with good manners, empathy, or anything else that you (general you) fancy tagging as *lady like*, then good on you. That expectation and peg holing should be kept to your (general) consensual dynamic be it whatever it is. WHAT should not be happening is that certain behaviors dictate how all women/femmes/femalebodied persons *should* act, talk or be like....


For *me* that's oppressing, sexist, non consensual and it perpetuates that women.femme.femalebodied persons are only here to make it better for all those folks (general) that like to put women.femme.femalebodied person into boxes that we do not fit into...


So I use Lady, because when I use Sir, Master, Owner it seems to be a disturbing factor in people, most people though get it, that my ownership of Lady is like my ownership of baby girl, it's on my damn terms, on it's done my way, it it fits no one's standard definition of either, I own my Femme that was as well, it's either my way or it's not for me....


It hasn't kept me from having a good time for 44.5 years, matter of fact it keeps me quite busy and occupied in every way.

*curtsy*


P.S.

To clarify about my baby girl, I'd like to be transparent and say she's about 16.5 a Lolita and pretty much runs it her way as well... Happy New Year

[Martina]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Saying "I'm a lady" does not shock, does not challenge and does not make people think. It just looks like I'm buying in to the hierarchical pretence of privileged behaviour. Telling people "I'm not lady" is what challenges them to think about it.

Good point.