Top 10 Lesbian Myths

[Softhearted]

In my humble opinion, as long as our society will equate sex = only reproduction, we won't get out of the penis/vagina equation... of course, as a species we use sex, or should I say coitus, in order to reproduce, but sex, other tha coitus/penetration, is also a way to express other things... bonding, making social contacts, having pleasure... and even, unfortunatly, punishing others. "Non coitus" sex was also observed in other species like primates, dolphins, etc...

That is why when some people tell me, "but you don't really have sex because you are a lezzy"... I ask them, "well do you always get pregnant or does your gf gets always get pregnant when you have sex?"

If the answer is no, then I tell them.. "then you are not having sex either!!!!"

My two cents...

[Nat]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

When it comes to butch cock, why would butch/femme sex in which butch cock plays a starring roll be viewed as imitative of heterosexual sex? I'm a lesbian and that's how I have sex, so it's lesbian sex to me. Straight people can imitate us if they choose. That doesn't bother me a bit.

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no-true-scotsman"-like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts/invalidates the identities and sex lives of butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

(Just one example: Butch bottoms exist and they aren't any less butch for it. When you define butch-femme sex as involving a butch cock, it does feel like an attempt to invalidate butch bottoms and femme tops and switches).

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no true scotsman" like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

Very interesting what gets responded to and what doesn't.

Anyway, I am a stone butch lesbian who has a cock not a dildo. I'm engaged in lesbian sex when I am using my cock or it's being pleasured or whatever. I am a lesbian having sex. Lesbians having sex where there is no butch cock involved are also having lesbian sex. Butches and femmes (whether they are lesbians or not) are having sex whether there is a butch cock involved or not. There are as many ways to have sex as a lesbian as anyone else having sex.

Nat, nailed it with post as far as I am concerned. You can't divide up lesbians and butch femmes based on butch cock- that's extremely sexist and narrow minded and inaccurate. It also does follow along heterosexual lines of thinking which is what I believe AtLast is referring to. Butch cock is not the center of the universe for butch femme sex, although many of us are rather fond of it as giver, receiver or both.

[Nat]

PS. I don't think of my cock as a dildo or a toy either, and I do ID as a femme and a lesbian.

When it's attached, it's part of me, it's an extension of me, it's this body/soul/brain cohesion thing and it's awesome.

[LipstickLola]

I'm going to comment from my own personal perspective, hear me please? I mean NO disrespect, no NOTHING (yes, that was intentional albeit grammatically incorrect).

I am a lesbian, and a late bloomer (*read* closeted for many years). That being said, I see and feel my genitalia as female, I adore and love being with another woman who has the same genitalia as me. I do not see myself as having a 'cock' so to speak, and honestly, until I came here, (as I stated in the beginning, to gain a different perspective), I had no clue there was so much delineation and sub-dividing of who we are as women. I do not always understand, in my naivete, I may make a stupid comment, but also mean nothing negative or disrespectful, but some of this is way over my head for a little old middle aged lesbian as myself. Make no mistake about it though, I have great sex!! hot, steamy, passionate, sweaty, all encompassing SEX. Sometimes, I use "toys", to me, IMO, they are an extenstion of my wish to give pleasure to my partner, or, to pleasure myself. They may, or may not be phallic in shape or design, makes no difference to me. Having been married to a male for many years, I'd just as soon leave the "penis" aspect alone, but again, that's just me, and does not in any way mean that I cannot respect YOU, (as in the 'you' of you all here.)

I hope that by expressing my opinion here in the "lesbian" thread, I am not in violation of the TOS, as stated before, I mean no disrespect or anything negative in any way shape or form. I fully realize my opinions do not reflect those of many here as well, Peace!!!

[Rope]

Yes, Bulldog you're right---I live in Gay mecca San Francisco and meet and cross many communities with the Queer community. That said, there are plenty of lesbians in this town that do not like butch/femme folk and IN PART, that is how Butch/Femme Socials got started.

No, a butch (or femme) cock in one's relationship will not prevent lesbian OR butch/femme bed death. My point in saying that there is LESS bed death within our community again was from talking to those who "crossed over" from lesbian to butch/femme community, is from talking to various people who have done this. They found that the dynamic of butch/femme was vastly different than their lesbian life and more open to sex and the communication of sex.

Yes, I know there are those that don't make that distinction between lesbian and butch/femme, that they are lesbians AND butch or femme. Yes, I know that plenty of switches use dildos or their butch or femme cocks---and plenty that have fulfilling sew lives without dildos or cocks, not to mention have a variety of sexual activities. Plenty of lesbians and butch/femme folk do not like or enjoy penetrative sex with cock like instruments or even dildos in the shape of dolphins.

Yes, Bulldog I attended an event at a lesbian bar---and guess what, I wasn't looking at the lesbians in the bar. I wasn't noticing the similarities that we have as "sisters" in this community. I was tracking the butches and femmes. I am glad that you have not had a rough time in your lesbian community.

Rope--

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yup... and although most people don't want to face it, we do slow down as we age and sex is included in the slow down (so is a wonderful history of creativity). Plus, medications/disability can have an effect on libido. Although, I have to add that "seniors" are far more sexually active than "myth" dictates as well!! Ut, Oh, I feel an attack of ageism and able-body privilege (with coming over me..

And there are many more "measures" of sexual activity than penis-to-vagina methods. The fact is butch/femme cock follows a very straight, heterosexual mode of sexually interpretation. Which is why I personally use accessorize, accessory for butch cock for myself. And toy as well (although not much anymore). No, cock doesn't set me off into defensive feminist mode- I just figure we all have our own terms we prefer. And if a femme I am intimate with wants to call it a cock, I don't care! Our mutual pleasure and satisfaction is what counts

Although, I am fond of “Where’s the toy box, Babe, I want to pick something out?” Oh, Geez, I am not dominant enough, either, I bet. I get off on her (a femme) making decisions around sex! Damn, there goes that butch card, again. Sorry, I do tire of so damn many of the sexual parameters we seem to have.

Oye! Maybe my feelings have something to do with raising a heterosexual male through the teenage years… believe me, I really got tired of cock-centricity… dunno… maybe we should have a poll on this and see what other parents of male kid would say- with the inclusion of a trans related item… who knows….

I am not trying to be snarky, I really am trying to infuse humor into this conversation. When I am able to laugh at myself, I end up seeing things much more clearly, plus I stop taking myself so seriously which calms me down…. I really don’t have a problem with whatever and however anyone wants to embrace (or not) butch-cock or just plain cock. Just please don’t judge my own personal thoughts about it or give me another identifier to deal with! I am as much lesbian as I am butch.

I love your exchange in this entire thread,

I think that as we get older sex is different and not as much of a priority. Throughout your life time you evolve emotionally and spiritually. Your priorities change. I have experimented with many things but the one thing present is that I am lesbian. I don't have a choice with this. I am free spirited and open. I was always attracted to masculine lesbians. When I discovered BF I was thrilled there were others like me. I've dated all types of people but have concluded, at this stage of my life I am lesbian- whatever the fuck that means. I don't know about lesbian death bed but I can see where two mature women reach a place of comfort and where intimacy doesn't have to include an orgasm. I can take or leave dildos or whatever kind of name you wanna give it BUT the vibrator stays! (wink) For me it all boils down to finding a connection and feeling a deep beautiful intimate spiritual connection. After everything I'd done, seen, been and know I am guessing this will be a lesbian butch woman. If its not then thats ok too.

[BullDog]

That if you are a stone butch or stone femme you are not a lesbian. That just gets the big from me. Not all stone butches and stone femmes are lesbians, but there are plenty that are. There is no conflict.

On a related but more general topic many people, including many butches and femmes, seem to think lesbian sex is narrow in scope when in fact lesbians have sex in as many ways, shapes and forms as any type of person. Kinky, vanilla, stone etc. Just because there usually is not a male involved (although at times there are) doesn't make lesbian sex or sexuality limited or narrow or leave a bunch of things out or make us less sexually fulfilled, adventurous, etc.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by BullDog

That if you are a stone butch or stone femme you are not a lesbian. That just gets the big from me. Not all stone butches and stone femmes are lesbians, but there are plenty that are. There is no conflict.

On a related but more general topic many people, including many butches and femmes, seem to think lesbian sex is narrow in scope when in fact lesbians have sex in as many ways, shapes and forms as any type of person. Kinky, vanilla, stone etc. Just because there usually is not a male involved (although at times there are) doesn't make lesbian sex or sexuality limited or narrow or leave a bunch of things out or make us less sexually fulfilled, adventurous, etc.

well they say the most important thing is the mind. I agree with that. I don't think it matters what kind of sex two people have. You're right, most people think all lesbians do is bump and grind.

I don't know about many of you but when I came out as a teen all I saw was mostly dykes and butches. There were fewer femmes or at least the bars and groups i attended in South Florida. As years went on more femmes started appearing. In fact I was ultra femme and was often thought of being bisexual and for the most part dykes ignored me. My buddy once told me I scared them because I was so femme and attractive. So I put on 501's and a polo shirt but there was no escaping my feminine persona, not to mention huge boobs and big round ass. Even among the lesbians/dykes I wasn't taken seriously back then because I didn't "look" lesbian.

Times have changed for sure. I don't think there are many myths as there were in the past. People seem much more tolerant. I personally get sick of all the labels trying to define who I am.