Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[Chazz]

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

[tapu]

Damn. You're good.

I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Tapu

I'd object (mildly) to your adj/noun edict on a number of grounds--most notably, that you blur the distinction while making it--but I think this is nicely laid out.

Question: Sex = gender? They were distinguished above, I believe, at one point, but (without doing any research) I think they do equate.

No, sex and gender are not the same things; they do not equate.

SEX refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

GENDER describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine. Gender is culturally constructed and varies from culture to culture.

Here's why this matters: An Editorial from The Journal of Applied Physiology

The continuing dedication by physiologists to sex-based and women’s health research comes from the understanding that although females and males share many physiological similarities, they are fundamentally different. This is a basic biological principle in all species in which sexes exist, and there is an obvious need to explore the differentiation that the evolution of sex has afforded humans and their biology, but female and male sex-based research is not the same as gender-based research. The point is that avoiding synonymous use of the terms sex and gender serves to avoid misusing the concepts of sex and gender across disciplines of science. In summary, it is appropriate to use the term sex when referring to the biology of human and animal subjects, and the term gender is reserved for reference to the self-identity and/or social representation of an individual.

Some people many not care about women's health research, but I do personally and professionally. Historically, it has lagged far behind male health research, including in funding. Mixing metaphors, syntax, nouns with verbs, adjectives and neologisms may be "play" for some people, but some of us need to know who we are talking about when we read research data. Objective reality has an essential role for some of us. Me, for one.

Originally Posted by Thinker

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Woman and man are nouns according to every dictionary I've consulted.

Yep, (some) people within the LGBTQ community have played with definitions, put spin on them, created entirely new vernaculars, neologisms.... This is, I believe, what has led to the current BV controversy. This word play has not served all of us equally well.

They who presume to name, presume to own. All this presuming has led to the disenfranchisement of female identified butches, lesbian women and Feminists in many quarters. It's been incremental, but it's been profound. Just the other night, I went to bed a butch and woke up "masculine of center".

So, I'm keeping it simple. I'm sticking to the English dictionary and my HERitage as a lesbian/butch//Feminist. Other people can do what they want, but they cannot force or intimidate me into going along with it.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Chazz,

I think I understand your intent in posting this. However, it could be seen as a supportive thing or a controversial thing or a little bit of both.

I dont want to presume something here. So, could you elaborate a bit on your intent?

I'm good with a little bit of both.

[Kobi]

My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things.

My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since.

Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us.

It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested).

I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory.

There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring.

Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for.

They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it.

At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings.

So who's watching the store?

[The_Lady_Snow]

My gender is Femme my assigned sex is Female I can also identify with woman and embrace my occasional masculinity. Physiology reports will never change that for "me" since I don't buy into the binary construct of gender.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm one of the ones watching the store. I promise.

The community as a whole is so fractured in the younger generations because identities as a whole have become passe. Nobody wants to use identifiers, they believe in fluidity and rage against a system of names and notations and labels.

I ran a campus LGBT organization for two years and it was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Everyone is so locked in to what THEY support and what they believe that they don't take the time to look and see how we are all still fighting for basic rights and need to support each other. Instead it devolves into a "why should i fight for your cause when MY cause is more important to ME".

I admit, I am one of those who minored in women's studies and can parrot herstory with the best of them, but I'm also trying very hard to learn everything I can from the pioneers. Two of my professors have been fighting most of their lives for tenured positions, and refusing to closet their lesbian identities often at the expense of their job security. One is butch, the other femme, although I doubt she's appreciate being described as such. Those two women taught me more about pride, activism, and the necessity of action than any book ever could.

Originally Posted by Kobi

My wish to rekindle lesbian pride sans the qualifiers is multifold. Part is feeling invisible as a woman and a lesbian. Part is feeling like a guest in my community as a butch. Part is feeling woman and lesbian have somehow become passe and are being phased out in the scheme of things.

My real life world is a world of lesbian women. I dont even know if there is a trans community/group here. I remember as a young woman how invigorated and validated I felt when I found the lesbian and feminist communities. I remember how proud I was to be part of the new trailblazers that would usher in a new era of creativity, development, and activism for women and lesbians. I remember soaking up every bit of information I could get my hands on, attending all the lectures, the events etc. I hadnt felt anything like it before or since.

Lately, I have been looking on the net for "lesbian" web sites or even sites that may be of interest to "lesbians". I wasnt looking for the old stuff. I was looking for the new stuff for the generations that came after us.

It has been a disappointing search thus far. I am finding many women run, lesbian in the title web sites. I was surprised to see a membership of females and males - I expect it in butch-femme but not general sites. I see many stories on beefing up (no pun intended) definitions across a wide spectrum, I see some definate blurring and almost interchangability in gender and orientation, much on relationships, fashion or lack there of, a fair amount on trans, a lot of masculine of center, a lot on variations of femme stuff ( the right words for this escapes me), a bunch on how to get laid (bookmarked those in case anyone is interested).

I didnt see anything on lesbian identity sans qualifiers, little on feminism, little on herstory.

There might be more of what I am looking for on FB but the few times I ventured there it seemed hard to navigate and pretty darn boring.

Even when chatting in real life with youngins today, they can parrot much on womens studies but it seems to be an academic exercise rather than a part of their history or their identities. They take so much for granted that we old farts had to fight for.

They have so much freedom to explore and so many more options/choices than were available back in my day. Yet they seem so unconnected to it.

At 55, I am too tired to be an activist anymore. I cant stay up late enough for the meetings.

So who's watching the store?

[Softhearted]

It took me a while before using the word lesbian to describe my sexual orientation... usually I was using the word homosexual...

For a while now, I see that the word lesbian is not only a matter of sexual orientation but an identity and it is defined differently depending on the cultural (country of origin) context and is also a question of generation.

I was surprised to read an article in Fugues (a LGBT magazine from Montréal) that many young gay women (in their teens and early 20's) found that the word "lesbienne est vieillot et représente une image de femmes démodées" which means that the word is "old" and represents the image of "outdated" women (not modern, ancient, ect...).
source: http://www.fugues.com/main.cfm?l=fr&...rticle_ID=1251
But when I speak to young hetersexual women and men, for them the word lesbian invokes: a woman who is romantically and physically involved with another woman (which by the way is how I see myself!)

So I suppose I have to use different words when addressing different crowds!

End of my rant

[OS Butch]

I will cross post this to a couple other threads.

Lesbian Connection, aka LC, is a magazine I have superscribed to for years.
It arrives quarterly in my mailbox in an indiscreet manila envelope!
It is a quick read with only 50 pages. They are reprinting the series "Dykes to Watch out For"
The subscription fee is sliding scale free to anyone world wide and $42 for those that can afford it. Donations and gift subscriptions are appreciated!
I am not on the staff, I am just worried that without support, this little rag will vanish as has the woman's bookstores that use to be.

Elsie Publishing
EPI
PO Box 811
East
Lansing, Mi 48826
(517)371-5257 (M-F) noon- 6pm ET
elsiepub@aol.com

www.LConline.org

[OS Butch]

Well, I am not an English Major or writer nor do I know much about grammatics or being politically correct for that matter, but I don't agree with a couple of the items. So, maybe I will say this is how they are for me.

An adjective modifies a noun or a pronoun by describing, identifying, or quantifying words. An adjective usually precedes the noun or the pronoun which it modifies.

A noun is a word used to name a person, animal, place, thing, and abstract idea.

In that light, both Butch and Lesbian are adjectives for me as they describe parts of me, not all of me....Butch Lesbian Woman

Hey! Is that a new acronym? BLW? Cool beans

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

[OS Butch]

Oh, I might add I really like the book" Butch as a Noun"

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Chazz

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

I am not trying to derail the thread but...

Transgender is an adjective, not a verb. People aren't transgendering.

Also, people aren't transgendered even though it is used all the time. i have even caught my self using it early on and still catch myself using transgendered at times. It can be insulting to many people within the transgender community.

It may seem like semantics but it is important.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Chazz

For the sake of clarity, and in the the spirit of reclaiming lesbian heritage and grammatical correctness - neoPolitical Correctness be damned (I never signed on for that, anyway):


female/woman (noun) = sex/biology
male/man (noun) = sex/biology

lesbian (noun) = a woman of same sex, sexual orientation

feminine/masculine (adj.) = gender

femme (noun) = female lesbian
butch (noun) = female lesbian who expresses female "masculinity"

transgender (verb) = moving along a gender continuum.

transgender person (noun) = a person of either sex, who may be lesbian, gay or straight.

Using adjectives as nouns is not good grammar, nor is it good politics. It just muddies the water. Non-lesbians, who lay claim to lesbian descriptors, are the ones obliged to clarify through expanded labeling.

I entered this discussion this morning as a moderator because we had a community member ask us to keep an eye on the conversation for fear things might get a little heated. I say that because I want to be clear that I do not identify as a lesbian. Even when that was the community I felt was a "best fit" for me, I was not able to embrace that particular identity. I tried, but I knew it was not an authentic reflection of who I was as a person.

So in coming here to catch up on things this morning, I read the post quoted above and am curious, Chazz, if you pasted this information from somewhere else or if this is how you see things?

Like a few others have stated, some of the information is in conflict with my own definitions. For example, the first two entries... I see male and female as biological sex assignments, but I see woman and man as gender identities.

It seems important to acknowledge that most of us here will have our own little spin on how all these terms and the grammar of it all......as well as the politics.......play out and, hopefully, we won't let those differences be a barrier in reclaiming lesbian pride (as the title suggests).

Thinker (entered as a moderator but posting as a member)

[Kobi]

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Good Morning Kobi, I'm sorry you are feeling some frustration this morning regarding how you are not being seen.. How can we help you not feel this way? What is it you have envisioned for this thread? Are you seeking women with lesbian being their only identifier? How can we help you not feel so alone?

You aren't there's lots of lesbians here I'm sure soon this thread will be full of women embracing their pride right along with you!

Thank you for your kindness. My frustration is getting in the way of my being able to answer you at the moment. Let me stew on this a bit.

[tapu]

Lesbian is a weird word. I don't mean the semantics of it, and how we're trying to define or understand it. I mean orthographically. You just don't see the letter l, s, b together in a word much. I remember how, right before and after I came out, my eyes would dart to words like Lebanese and Lisbon in the news or wherever. It's a stand-out letter sequence for me.

When I first started claiming my identity, I said I was gay. I was a gay woman. (I was not, however, a gay, which I think is derogatory, but is becoming more neutral in the plural, e.g., "Gays today want....")

There are still one-off situations where I balk at saying lesbian. Like, to an elderly person. Or too-loudly in a cafe. I don't know whether I don't want to ruin someone's lunch or what, and while I think I should analyze that fear in myself I don't much feel like it right now.

Well, those are my thoughts, and nothing more, about being and calling myself a lesbian. Thanks for a forum where I can explore it.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. I feel I fought hard to earn the right to identify as a lesbian. That being said, I also love transmen and androgynous folks, as well as gender queer beings. I don't think my lesbian identity interferes with that, though.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

When I started this thread, I hoped it would not turn into a debate of terminology, or who owns what words, or who has the current rights to whatever.

I hear you. I hate, hate, hate the political mechanics, too.

But some of us, not necessarily all of us, recognize the backward motion that is taking place in the community which HAS RESULTED IN A LOSS OF OUR LESBIAN PRIDE and HERITAGE.

But, I get it. This parsing of terms is a drag. Is it ever ! ! ! ! However, one must go where the problem lies; at least part of the problem.

Reassigning meaning to words lesbians identify with effects and changes how we imagine ourselves. Language matters. There are those within the community who know this and have been studiously chip, chip, chipping away at language while the rest of us have been building a tent.

When 1 + 1 stops equaling 2, and 1 + 2 starts equaling 4, we're not communicating. And when someone says: Hey, we're not communicating, and another person says: Hush up, you're wrecking the tent, kumbaya. That's anti-communication - i.e. a subtle form of censorship. I don't know how to reclaim pride, build a tent and listen to the death knells of my identifiers all at once. I can cede space; I will not cede my identity.

But, I get it. The mechanics of communication are boring, even anxiety provoking. It's so much easier to say: "Let's get along, shall we?", as we sidestep certain things. Let's not, then, do a Chicken Little when we finally notice that the meaning of lesbianism/Womanism/Feminism is fadding into obscurity. Otherwise, what's the need for Reclaiming Lesbian Pride?

Kobi, you and I are on the same page about most things. Where we may diverge is about how to reclaim lesbian pride while walking around a linguistic elephant in the room, in a thread about reclaiming pride. There is clutter underfoot - fractured words, recalcitrant nouns, spurious adjectives.... I don't know how to have this conversation, balanced on one toe, while meaning is drained from the very words we use to define ourselves, even as we speak.

Originally Posted by Kobi

I am a freakin lesbian - one of those relic women who wants to be with women who want to be with other women.

I am tired of feeling invisible in my own community. I am tired of feeling like a guest in my own community.

I just wanted a place to be where others like me can get together and say "hey yea we are still here and we are still ok and we still have a voice and we're not going away."

Is that too much to ask?

NO, it isn't too much to ask.

But, I do have a question.... Who's "voice" are we speaking in? Ours, or those who do not ID as lesbian women?

If your post was directed at those who would recalculate our language for us, kumbaya. I got your back.

[tapu]

<perk>

did someone call for a linguist?


(yeh, yeh, I know, it's not the kind of input you want.)