Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[ScandalAndy]

Sometimes I use ugly words when I am angry or threatened. I've called women some pretty awful things because they made me feel bad so I wanted to make them feel bad too, even though those words go against everything I believe in.

Originally Posted by June

I'll start.

I have had other Lesbians tell me they couldn't be sexist because they're women.

I've had Butches tell me to "Lighten up" because I wanted to pay my own way and it hurt their egos.

I have used derogatory terms towards other women, Bitch, Cunt and Whore in really ugly, sexist ways thinking it was okay, because I am a woman.

I have been afraid of having conversations because even though I own that I'm Transphobic, I don't want to prove it in words publicly while I am working it out.

I have been the subject of and witnessed others being the subject of really misogynistic and sexist behavior by members of this community via head patting and shaming because we're not ladylike enough or not doing Femme, Butch, Lesbian, Male, Woman, Feminist, etc. in the right way (meaning their way).

That's just a small portion of what comes to mind right now, and I look forward to this discussion.

[JAGG]

Guilty! I am owning up to being judgemental about area's of our community. Room to improve here, and grow. And I intend to.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Sometimes I use ugly words when I am angry or threatened. I've called women some pretty awful things because they made me feel bad so I wanted to make them feel bad too, even though those words go against everything I believe in.

Aren't we all guilty of muttering "bitch" under our breath every now and again? The difference I am recognizing is how I feel immediately after that ugly word leaves my mouth.

We need to stop oppressing one another.

[Dominique]

It's been 30 years and I am still trying to figure out Lesbian Culture. I feel like I am an invisable Femme. I've said this on here, and over there and in my real life.

Then I worry about bigoted comments from my on line community. I have no real life *community*, there I am a Lesbian,-Queer would be pushing it.
Comments from my real life lesbian friends are always *You're not Queer enough, except you're a jock*

From the straights that I've told *Really? You're Gay? You don't look it? P A U S E ah, just that jock stuff*

I'm introverted. I write, I draw, I paint. I run, I cycle and I kayak. All very inwardly tranquil. INWARD. The inward things, figments of our imaginations. So unless you look different, unless there is something physically proving ~whatever that is~ theres plenty of room for people to doubt you and judge you and feel justified with the doubting and the judgeing.

As always, writing this has felt very empowering.

Thanks all.

I also become very frustrated always having to explain myself. Maybe thats why I don't.

[Apocalipstic]

It seems that when one or very few members of a minority make a mistake or are a jerk then they seen as representative of that entire group.

For example one Transperson (Argentine, Woman, Master etc) acted in this or that way so I hate all Transpeople (or whatever the group is). This is not reality.

Individuals do not speak for the whole.

Yes, we "represent" our group in the same way we are supposed to "represent" our parents, and should ac t right. But I hope I am not held as representative of all adoptees or women or Lesbians etc.

We need to stop thinking things like..."well I was raped by a redmeck white woman", so I hate all redneck white women. and when I say "we", I mean I need to stop.

[Apocalipstic]

I hate the whole "safe place" thing.

One thing I have learned is that there is mo safe place and I have looked.

I think it is an excuse to be exclusionary a lot of the time.

[Dominique]

I dislike slurs and derogatory name calling between women.

Bad enough i/ we have had to endure it from men since the age of time, I am far less accepting of it from another woman. I work very hard to not do it. Certainly I can find a more powerful word in my vocabulary.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

The major ethic I've taken from the queer community in the scant few years I've really been part of it is "I won't ever tell you you're wrong if you won't ever tell me I'm wrong." We're all so concerned with never being questioned and never having to explain ourselves that we have this vast, unspoken agreement that no one should ever have to explain anything, and anyone who breaks this unspoken agreement is treated pretty harshly.

I think this is a big part of the problem. If you never have to explain yourself, you're never held accountable for anything. The community in general has this idea that you can spout off any old thing you want, and if you follow it up with "well, that's my truth" then no one gets to question you, no matter how sexist, racist, misogynist, hateful, or just plain factually wrong you might be.

The thing is, I think we shoot ourselves in the foot with this way of thinking. When people on the other side of the political spectrum from us, the ones who think we're horrible deviants with no moral center who deserve to be oppressed, talk about how we don't have any sense of right and wrong, or any morals or values, how we think everything is okay and there's no such thing as a moral wrong, this is what they're talking about. If we can't stand up within our own community and say "No, this is wrong, this behavior is not acceptable" then how can we complain when people who don't like us point out that we won't do just that and use it against us?

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

The major ethic I've taken from the queer community in the scant few years I've really been part of it is "I won't ever tell you you're wrong if you won't ever tell me I'm wrong." We're all so concerned with never being questioned and never having to explain ourselves that we have this vast, unspoken agreement that no one should ever have to explain anything, and anyone who breaks this unspoken agreement is treated pretty harshly.

I think this is a big part of the problem. If you never have to explain yourself, you're never held accountable for anything. The community in general has this idea that you can spout off any old thing you want, and if you follow it up with "well, that's my truth" then no one gets to question you, no matter how sexist, racist, misogynist, hateful, or just plain factually wrong you might be.

The thing is, I think we shoot ourselves in the foot with this way of thinking. When people on the other side of the political spectrum from us, the ones who think we're horrible deviants with no moral center who deserve to be oppressed, talk about how we don't have any sense of right and wrong, or any morals or values, how we think everything is okay and there's no such thing as a moral wrong, this is what they're talking about. If we can't stand up within our own community and say "No, this is wrong, this behavior is not acceptable" then how can we complain when people who don't like us point out that we won't do just that and use it against us?

I agree with you about our community being accountable. In my opinion, if we cannot start with being accountable to one another here, then ? I am having a problem with the "moral" statement. Who's morality? There are some that think our way of life is NOT moral and I would disagree.

I don't want to get caught up in another round of semantics. Thank you for posting your thoughts, and I support you in speaking up.

[Apocalipstic]

Yes, but I really don't want anyone to call me out for who I am...it is none of anyone's business.

Individual bad behavior? Yes Who I am? No

Admittedly I live in the South where we talk behind people's backs and never to their faces, but who am I to make moral judgements for other people outside of the basics?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

The major ethic I've taken from the queer community in the scant few years I've really been part of it is "I won't ever tell you you're wrong if you won't ever tell me I'm wrong." We're all so concerned with never being questioned and never having to explain ourselves that we have this vast, unspoken agreement that no one should ever have to explain anything, and anyone who breaks this unspoken agreement is treated pretty harshly.

I think this is a big part of the problem. If you never have to explain yourself, you're never held accountable for anything. The community in general has this idea that you can spout off any old thing you want, and if you follow it up with "well, that's my truth" then no one gets to question you, no matter how sexist, racist, misogynist, hateful, or just plain factually wrong you might be.

I'd like to echo this sentiment.

One thing I have seen and experienced is that folks are often super quick to label someone a "bully" for saying "Hey, that thing you just said is fucked up". If 3 or 4 people come in and say the same thing, then they are a "clique" or a "gang". Instead of becoming people who think that thing you just said is fucked up, they are people who have "targeted" you in some way and specifically have sought out your postings so they can "shred them" or "rip them apart" for entertainment.

It's that whole "whoever can claim "victim" first" thing wins. Or perhaps it's whoever labels another person "opressor" first?

Either way, I have seen it stifle more discussions than I can remember and think that it is damaging behavior. I've employed this behavior myself even when I didn't realize it because I often interpreted "I don't agree" with "you suck and are a x, y, z". I try to keep in mind now that disagreement does not equate "value judgment" (until it does).

Also, the "my truth" thing - and I think we have a thread on this somewhere? We bend over backwards to hear people's "truths" even when those "truths" are things like "Every fat person I have ever known stinks" or "I once saw a real live troll leaving candy under my bed". There's a place for us to go "Your a dumbass if you think I believe that" (in friendlier words).

There is a flip side to that coin, I do feel that we don't get to tell other people what their experiences have been. I've seen discussions devolve when people's personal experiences get untangled and all of the sudden, they don't recognize their own story. Sometimes that's because they need to hear their experience regurgitated by another person with a different perspective and sometimes it's because other perspectives make that experience feel scarily different.

I'm rambling here and don't mean to be (I'm a 'stream of consciousness' poster)...

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

It seems that when one or very few members of a minority make a mistake or are a jerk then they seen as representative of that entire group.

For example one Transperson (Argentine, Woman, Master etc) acted in this or that way so I hate all Transpeople (or whatever the group is). This is not reality.

Individuals do not speak for the whole.

Yes, we "represent" our group in the same way we are supposed to "represent" our parents, and should ac t right. But I hope I am not held as representative of all adoptees or women or Lesbians etc.

We need to stop thinking things like..."well I was raped by a redmeck white woman", so I hate all redneck white women. and when I say "we", I mean I need to stop.

YES!

I want to piggy back off this by saying that I have felt hurt when I have seen femme threads on here where some people have talked about men with a broad brush, and a negative one at that. And since it was in the femme zone, I felt I couldn't and shouldn't come in and say, "Hey, as a transguy I want to say that not all guys are like that. I'm not like that!"

I also want to say that I, personally, try to keep in mind that we queer people, LGBTQ, etc. all know what it is like to be marginalized and oppressed by the hetero-normative, non-trans, homophobic, white-centric, racist and patriarchal dominant culture of our respective countries. We all experience it on one level or another, or on multiple levels. We need to stick together and stop attacking each other! I have said this several times before and I will keep saying it. Stop the madness! lol.

I try my best to listen to the concerns and issues of others, and put myself in their shoes. I can't always relate to what everyone is going through because I don't always have the same exact experiences. But I have to take someone's word for it when they say they feel marginalized. However, sometimes, given all the facts, I can see that there are times when such feelings are based on miscommunications or misperceptions of the facts. One person says one thing, and another person assumes there is an intent in those words that simply isn't there, and then feels upset.

Here is a personal example for me: I have been told that I could never understand what it is like to be on the receiving end of racism, and my comments were dismissed. My point of view is, yes I will never know exactly what that is like, it's true. However, I do know what it is like to have a hard time getting employment on the basis of who I am and what I look like, being passed over for promotions, stared at in public places, treated as if I am less than human, had my property vandalized, called hurtful bigoted words, etc. It's not exactly the same, but it's something. And I will never understand any better as long as no one tries explain it to me. I would love for someone to say, "Drew, these are the experiences I have and this is how it effects my life and makes me feel." As a white person who doesn't experience the receiving end of racism, I want to understand better. And I want others to understand better what it is like to be me and what I go through too. All it takes is an openness to listen, and the patience to explain without judgment. The same goes for sexism, and all the other -isms.

I have more to say but I have to get going now. I will be back later. Great topic AJ!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'd like to share the word 'morals' is like a trigger, it's cause of the way it can be used to demean. How Aj used morality was not so triggering I'm trying to figure out why...

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by June

I'll start.

I have had other Lesbians tell me they couldn't be sexist because they're women.

I've had Butches tell me to "Lighten up" because I wanted to pay my own way and it hurt their egos.

I have used derogatory terms towards other women, Bitch, Cunt and Whore in really ugly, sexist ways thinking it was okay, because I am a woman.

I have been afraid of having conversations because even though I own that I'm Transphobic, I don't want to prove it in words publicly while I am working it out.

I have been the subject of and witnessed others being the subject of really misogynistic and sexist behavior by members of this community via head patting and shaming because we're not ladylike enough or not doing Femme, Butch, Lesbian, Male, Woman, Feminist, etc. in the right way (meaning their way).

That's just a small portion of what comes to mind right now, and I look forward to this discussion.

My personal belief is that regardless of your orientation, one should never use their gender identification as a patriarchal tool of oppression. Period.

[Greyson]

Aj, I think it takes courage, a willingness to feel uncomfortable and a commitment to take a look at changing ourselves as individuals in our daily actions and thoughts. This is what I believe will move our community forward.

A few years back I realized just how much the "victim mentality" held me back and I had allowed life circumstances to wound me and turn me into an angry, fearful, and stagnated human being. I have judged others and I have learned to forgive.

I have walked through life in different realities. Most of my life I have been perceived as masculine and queer. I have been perceived to be middle-class, working-class and welfare-class. Some see me as a foreigner in my own country and some perceive me to be white. I have been perceived to be educated and to be illiterate. I have been told I speak with a heavy Spanish accent and English is my first and primary language. I have negotiated myself through what sometimes feels like a world of paradox.

I am tired of the "me me" paradigm too. I will start with some of my transgressions. I cannot tell you how many times internally I have dismissed lesbians and white women saying “I don't feel safe. I need my own safe space." I know I have a lot of baggage around this. When I hear this, I hear, "You are masculine, you are a POC and you are wired to hurt people like me; not masculine, privileged and clueless about other cultures." I know this may sound frightening to some but I am being real.

I know I have a ways to go. I am trying. Trust me; many times I am as scared and leery of the ones needing safety as they are of people like me.

[Heart]

~Differentiate between linking oppressions and oppression olympics.

~Recognize that discussing gender politics, pronoun choice, safe space, visibility, etc are privileges that most people do not have, and that huge swaths of people across the globe are routinely and rigidly oppressed based upon sex, gender, race, and class.

~Understand that no personal journey, process, choice, label, or experience is free of a social/cultural context.

~Understand also things like institutional power, blaming victims (shifting accountability), internalized oppression, horizontal hostility, and tokanism.