Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently

While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting.

I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy

I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side.

Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me.

Feminism has always included men- it is defined as equality of both sexes. Yes, there exist feminist separatists (just as there are those that base the world's worth upon that which is male)- but they are not and never have been the bulk of the various feminist movements.

Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. The institution of marriage has evolved past many of the patriarchal limits it held in the past (lots of new data on marriage being published).

I sometimes get a little upset with many discussions on feminism completely focusing on middle class, white, childless perspectives. This too, is just not the reality any longer. Feminism has evolved and grown along with the changes in demographics of the US (including gender studies) and just cannot be viewed in the same old ways.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

And that describes ME. So, I get to talk about stuff related to my life including my thoughts/ideas about trans, cis, feminism, sleeping with men, etc. Unless of course you have a particular set of topics for us lesbian females to discuss that meet with your approval.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

I have probably talked about misogyny more times in these threads than any other poster, and have put myself on the firing line time and time again on these boards. I don't have to prove myself to you Kobi, but what really irks me, is the lack of respect you are showing for other posters here, including the very lesbians you claim to want to give space to.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.
In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Excuse me? I don't need your benefit of the doubt Kobi. Bring it. Your vague disparaging of my intent and character started when I mentioned sleeping with men. You launched into your tirade about what the true definition of a lesbian is. So, no mystery Kobi - you are being perfectly well understood.

Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

Oh no Kobi -- I'm more comfortable kicking the fence over -- so let me make it clear to you one more time: I'm a lesbian, a dyke, a woman who fucks women. I have also fucked men -- and been raped by one too. I'm the mother of a son and I would never live on any "safe land" that rejected him due to his gender. I am fiercely feminist and my work and life are about empowering women and girls whether they are straight, lesbian, bi, trans, or unaffiliated. Oh, and I welcome trans women into MY lesbian/female spaces, and their issues are mine. So check it out Kobi -- THIS is what a lesbian feminist looks like.

I'm in this color - and I am PISSED.

Heart