Butch as an umbrella of presentations

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes or butches harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

[girl_dee]

please don't let google define who you are either.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Actually, studies have shown that some biological females that define as male have higher levels of testosterone (than the general female population), but this does NOT hold true for biological females who define as female who have same sex relationships. I am assuming the people that you are calling butch women define as female.

EDIT: Just read Cheryl's post...agreed

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Yes it is baffling that you mention binding on this day. But here it is.

if you feel like a butch then you are one. No one can take that from you no matter what you wear or what you do. If you feel like a butch, you are!

Now rejoice!

[Corkey]

A butch is. Period.

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type, but that's just the type of butch I prefer. It can mean something totally different to others. Of course that person should have complexity and depth and even quirkiness. Outside of a hook-up that should be welcomed. If whoever with you're with objectifies you and doesn't accept you as a complete individual, then personally I think you should strive for better.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Submissive/bottom butch?

Still BUTCH

Dominant doesn't belong to one gender...

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Angeltoes

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Martina

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.

I'm just speaking for myself.
And like I said, it can mean something totally different for others.

[AlexHunter]

Hey there, Fanbutch! How 'bout them... Braves? O.o

It seems people have already stated my sentiments: the definition of butch is subjective and up to personal interpretation - this would mean that for me, it's an umbrella of presentations.

I've recently been incorporating more bright colors into my wardrobe... and I'm proud of it! Black, white, gray, and the occasional green or red were the only colors I wore for years. It's been exciting to wear colors like burgandy and indigo and yellow and, yes, even pink. When I was younger, I was absorbed with the idea of being society's idea of an acceptable "butch," but - to quote Ivan E Coyote (in "A Butch Roadmap") - "(We) are a rare species, not a stereotype."

I love clothes shopping. In fact, I love it so much that I've actually used it in place of something therapeutic during times of tragedy. I don't think this makes me less butch. It's not my primary method of consolation, but even if it was, it wouldn't revoke my butch card. I (like most of us) was raised being forced to wear "girl clothes" ; as soon as I could buy "guy clothes," I... think I went buck wild and never went back.

I'm going to take things a step further and say I like wearing my clothes on the tighter side. I'm rather slim and slightly tall; baggy clothes look ridiculous on me. I am assumed male most of the time and have been told people either think I'm a hipster, a rock band singer, or a twink when I'm in my casual wear. I like to incorporate the formal with the casual as much as possible.

So yeah, I preen. I watch what I eat and cut my own hair, too. I also own a remodeling business, drive a big truck, am on the hunt for a motorcycle, know a little bit about vehicular restoration and repairs, drink beer and shots almost exclusively, am sexually dominant, usually dislike "rom coms" (but I definitely dig the term you invented), always felt more like one of the guys than one of the girls, shave my face, bind, sometimes pack, and only date femmes.

The last paragraph represents things that might make other people call me butch - NOT the exact traits or sentiments of butches who are not me. I define myself as butch because I feel it is a term that suits me, both in its meaning of masculine and its place in queer history. I also define myself as butch, in part, because of the dynamic I like sharing with femmes.

What I'm trying to say through sharing my personal experience is: be your own definition of butch. If "butch" is a term you want to claim for yourself, do it. Own it. Rock it proudly and look damn good doing it... bright colors and all.

[jac]

I don't need someone, society or the community to define me as butch. I am as butch as I am because I say that I am. Is one butch more defined than another? Not hardly. If I say I am an artist who chooses to draw/sketch but not paint... am I any less an artist? Nope.