Butch as an umbrella of presentations

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

@mariamma- First of all, Fanbutch has requested female pronouns. Second, I wouldn't call your concepts modern in any way. In fact, pontificating about the alleged correlation beween estrogen and femmeness, and testosterone and butchness, is backwards enough to be really offensive. I try not to read your posts on this subject, but they've become harder and harder to avoid.

While I've never been tested, it's clear to anyone with eyes that my testosterone levels are on the high end of the female scale. That has NOTHING to do with me being femme. Unless a person is intersex or has adrenal hyperplasia there is NO way to correlate hormone levels with butchness or femmeness. Your simplistic outlook is kind of horrifying, and certainly insulting. Please stop.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by mariamma

I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

.... or her.

[Martina]

Welcome to the site, Fanbutch.

[SugarFemme]

Why is it when people don't agree with someones (ridiculous, not based on fact) theories, the "modern concepts" are thrown around?? Because something is allegedly "modern", those of us who don't agree or call bullshit on it are accused of being "upset" by it?? Just because you say it's a modern concept, does NOT make it fact. Just because you accept them as YOUR truths, do not make them THE truth. You say that this is not, "the place to argue about my beliefs", so we are just supposed to accept what you say whether we agree or not?

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[Corkey]

1. If hormones make the butch, or femme, then anyone who has had a hysterectomy would not fall into the "modern concept". Science can no more tell from someones hormone levels what their gender identity is than knowing if there is life on other planets. Gender is between the ears not the legs.
2. Dominance is no more a Butch fact then a Femme fact. It is as individual as the many identities on any spectrum.
3. If someone starts a thread based on nothing more than a sentence and does not clarify, they will get a multitude of answers from folks all over the spectrum, and we all have our opinions. But scientific facts are facts and google is not now or has it ever been a place for clear scientific fact.

I don't presume to know what the OP was thinking, it isn't clear, but I'll wait for clarification.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

you define me..................big ole snort..........

you certainly do like the western paradigm regardless of your gene pool......

nothing you spout off about is modern nor is it fact, so stop pretending you are some kind of intellectual and scientifically knowledgeable.... as you said....these are your notions and beliefs....and despite what the Republicans would have you think notions and beliefs are not facts.

[yotlyolqualli]

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.

[Corkey]

My rep to Toughy is not an acknowledgment of her words to whom she posted, but I really have a herd time with folks trying to tout BS as science. As for me, I acknowledge Toughy's humor in speaking for herself. Presumptions are sometimes putting cart before horse.

[blush]

Originally Posted by yotlyolqualli

Wow.

Mariamma...

You and I have our own set of beliefs that can be pretty damned unpopular. I don't believe as you do and thats OK. But this.... this is pretty fucking sad. I can't believe that your INTELLECT is being attacked because you shared your beliefs, your opinions.

For that, I'm sorry. I had thought better of us. I'll now have to rethink that.

Take care.

We see it differently. But for me, if someone makes an outrageous claim (such as: I saw an alien), it requires equally outrageous proof (such as: I have the alien over there). Trotting out google or whatnot as evidence of my alien visitation is not convincing enough evidence for the claim I made.

As a community, it is our obligation to question, defend, and define ourselves. If we don't, others will. Now, I don't give a rat's ass if someone takes a shine to that worn out theory about the hormones. It's their prerogative. But it heartens me to see so many responses that question the outrageous-ness of the claim.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes or butches harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

You don't define me. Neither does how much estrogen, or other hormone i have in my body at any given time or lack thereof.

[Daywalker]

It's a self Identifier, it's an energy, it's not a definition.

And.

It's a Gender Identity, not always indicative of ones Sexual Identity.
Example ~ no one makes love 'like' a Butch, they make love 'as' a Butch.



Just like any other 'group' folks choose to Identify with, no one person
can be the epitome of that group. That's the beauty of it that
folks forget to stand proud in appreciation of...our Diversity
as folks who include Butch in our list of Identities.

[girl_dee]

please don't let google define who you are either.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Actually, studies have shown that some biological females that define as male have higher levels of testosterone (than the general female population), but this does NOT hold true for biological females who define as female who have same sex relationships. I am assuming the people that you are calling butch women define as female.

EDIT: Just read Cheryl's post...agreed

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Yes it is baffling that you mention binding on this day. But here it is.

if you feel like a butch then you are one. No one can take that from you no matter what you wear or what you do. If you feel like a butch, you are!

Now rejoice!

[Corkey]

A butch is. Period.

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type, but that's just the type of butch I prefer. It can mean something totally different to others. Of course that person should have complexity and depth and even quirkiness. Outside of a hook-up that should be welcomed. If whoever with you're with objectifies you and doesn't accept you as a complete individual, then personally I think you should strive for better.