Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Jude

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

Um Jude that is the thread FeminineAllure Posted

She may have been attempting to answer for FA I am unsure.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Jude

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

We all know what a hate site that is, that's the point. It isn't our buddies, you are new here and don't know any of us, so please take the time to reread the thread. Thanks everso.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jude

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

I was pointing out FeminineAllures source, since you asked. I only knew because I had read the original link she put up and was aghast.

Please though, don't speak to other members like that, ok? You can be aghast too without being disrespectful.

If you'd like to come back and have a grown up conversation, please do, but this thread is not silly, nor is the subject matter a joke.

If you read my posts on the matter then you'll see clearly where I stand.

[Jude]

Superfemme, My apologies to you directly. I used the wrong name in my response. It was not intended for you.

I do, however, stand firmly in suggesting that the source was a pure, vile, hate site. What The entire mosque controversty (not just here, but in the news), in my personal opinion, is absurd, dangerous, pure hatred.

I've opted out of the thread after reading that link. Better things to do with my time. I do, however, apologize to you for responding to the incorrect name.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Toughy;186210]FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

[QUOTE]

I KNOW! It is making me crazy that it keeps being called a mosque! Isn't it interesting, that each and every Muslim spokesperson on the media coverage going on, refers to it as a community center with a prayer room. But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

I had friends in the towers that day, some of which did not make it out as well as co-workers and friends of all of them. I have family and friends in NYC, NJ CT and in PA (all of which i do not get to see often, dammit) that live and work around this area. My 2 remaining friends connected with this group of people in my life that got out do NOT have a problem with this community center being built there at all. Nor do members of my family living there. All of them think it is time heal and that a community center with a Muslim connection may very well help do this. They also feel that the media is heating this up a lot, mainly by continuing to refer to as a mosque and not correcting stories being circulated.

I have no idea how all of the family and friends of those killed that day feel about this or the rest of the City of New York. I don't trust what has been covered about this at this point at all.

What I feel deeply is that if this center's construction is stopped, it will set precident for any Muslim building being proposed all over the US, including mosques and that is just wrong! True Muslims were not responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

[weatherboi]

hey ALH-

i highlighted the part of your post i am speaking to.
here is an interview with a woman whose pregnant daughter was killed in 9/11 that i posted earlier on in the thread.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I KNOW! It is making me crazy that it keeps being called a mosque! Isn't it interesting, that each and every Muslim spokesperson on the media coverage going on, refers to it as a community center with a prayer room. But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

I had friends in the towers that day, some of which did not make it out as well as co-workers and friends of all of them. I have family and friends in NYC, NJ CT and in PA (all of which i do not get to see often, dammit) that live and work around this area. My 2 remaining friends connected with this group of people in my life that got out do NOT have a problem with this community center being built there at all. Nor do members of my family living there. All of them think it is time heal and that a community center with a Muslim connection may very well help do this. They also feel that the media is heating this up a lot, mainly by continuing to refer to as a mosque and not correcting stories being circulated.

I have no idea how all of the family and friends of those killed that day feel about this or the rest of the City of New York. I don't trust what has been covered about this at this point at all.

What I feel deeply is that if this center's construction is stopped, it will set precident for any Muslim building being proposed all over the US, including mosques and that is just wrong! True Muslims were not responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

[MsMerrick]

Here is why, I keep having nightmares. The echos, of Hitler's historical rise to power, are ringing in my ears.
1) Pick someone , a religion for instance , slightly different from the mainstream , blame them for everything
2) Spread false rumors, that they eat children, abuse them, whatever, there's plenty of hot buttons out there..
3) Paint yourself as the only moral person, sworn to stop those horrible people
4) Start small, be sympathetic but, firm that although you have no real problem, for their own safety perhaps, they should wear stars .. so others can know, and truly it is for your own good

Oh yeah, make sure you don't allow anyone to practice the religion, but again, with a lot of sympathy just cite a lot of crap and incite people further
Seriously, this gives me nightmares...
That intelligent people can quote or cite, such incredibly hate mongering people, with false rumors, and call that "presenting the other side" ..scares the crap out of me...
This is how it starts..

[Outlaw]

Originally Posted by paposeco

Thanks for quoting me correctly.
Those comments, were not directed specifically at you. You seem to have taken it personally. And yes, to me, it does seem that you were a wee bit triggerd by my words, even though they were NOT directed at you. I was speaking in general terms, mostly, but in specific, about the nuts and wackos of this world that use any excuse in the name of God/religion to divide people. Then have the audacity to use 9/11 to further their twisted agenda. Frankly I do not know why you singled me out, as there are other opinions on this post that have more "offensive" language (according to you) than mine. Remember fa...it was not an attack on you, k?
(I thinks it's rather ironic, that generally speaking this post is about Intolerance...lol) ah..never mind. btw..it's not a Mosque, and so what if it was? never mind this one either. I will not respond to any future responses, that you direct to me. I have not the energy nor the time to try to make myself any more clearer. Peace, really. It was only my point of view, nothing more and nothing less. God bless.

If someone finds your language offensive, why not find other language to express your opinion?

Why might someone might find language (like nuts and wacko) offensive?

If one member finds it offensive, then might other members find it offensive too?

If we're having a discussion about justice and tolerance shouldn't our collective language be a reflection of that?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

That much should be obvious by now, methinks. If it weren't for the repercussions of the media and American public's ignorance and fear of Islam, this situation would actually be insanely hilarious if only because of people's blatant stupidity.

Muslims: "We're going to build a community centre."
American media/public "Aaaaahhhh Mosque! Terror cell! Aaaaahhh!"
Muslims: "But...it's a community centre..."
American media/public: "How COULD you build a Mosque so close to the 911 site!?"
Muslims: "Umm....community centre?"
American media/public: "The horror of it! How could they build a Mosque! Oh god, the inhumanity!"
Muslims: "But there is already a Mosque some blocks away that has been here since before 911...and we aren't building a Mosque. It's a community centre..."
American media/public: "OH MY GOD A MOSQUE!!!! Terrorists are funding it! How can we let terrorists build a terror mosque so close to the 911 site!"
Muslims:*sigh*

A friend of mine showed me this amusing Daily Show clip. The stupidity of American news networks continues to astound me...

http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Displ...9-39b86da82f80

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jude

Superfemme, My apologies to you directly. I used the wrong name in my response. It was not intended for you.

I do, however, stand firmly in suggesting that the source was a pure, vile, hate site. What The entire mosque controversty (not just here, but in the news), in my personal opinion, is absurd, dangerous, pure hatred.

I've opted out of the thread after reading that link. Better things to do with my time. I do, however, apologize to you for responding to the incorrect name.

I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred.

[Jude]

You said:
"I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred."

.................................................. .................................................. ............

Thank you for your kind words. The two things I can't deal with graciously are racism and false elitism under any guise.

Noticed in this thread, and another, people seeking out "popularity". Thought that was something we get over when we're all grown up.

I'm a Jew who works for Palestinian children's relief and medical assistance. Trust me. in the Jewish community, that's not a very popular stance to take, although, thankfully, more and more Jews of conscience are standing with the people of Palestine every day.

All to say, I didn't come to this forum to make as many friends as possible. A couple or few authentic ones would be a delight.

Think that at this point we've established that there is really no difference between a "mosque" and an "Islamic Commnuity Center" any more than there is a difference between a temple and a Jewish Community Center. Both are ostensibly religious institutions that serve their own people as a spiritual, cultural and social center.
I'm not sure there's much else to say on the matter. There are magnificent, altruistic Muslims and there are crummy Muslims. Likewise, there are superb Jews with a heart and there are dreadful Jews. Certainly, things have been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ that are among the great historical atrocities of mankind. What some of us do in the name of our various faiths often bears little resemblance to what the founders of these beliefs preached and practiced.

Whenever we come upon hatred, my own belief is that it is our personal responsiblity to speak out and take appropriate action if we possibly can. Graciousness, in the face of ethnic viciousness is not, in my opinion, a personal attribute I feel the need to cultivate at this point in my life.
_

[SuperFemme]

Jude, thanks for sharing your stance, history and what you do.

As a Latina, I find the targeting of brown people abhorrent and have been shocked by the Islamophobia rearing it's ugly head around this country.

What is Islamophobia if not racism, right?

As for graciousness? I get your point. Trust me on that. It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community. Or any community.

[Jude]

You said: "It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community...."

Agree 100%. If we don't stand up for the civil rights of another disenfranchised people, how can we expect anyone to stand with us?

I think there is a point in life when we come to realize that some people are going to like us and some people are not. It's not even a question of "well, that's their problem". It's nobody's problem. It's simply not a problem at all. That's just how it is and so what?

[o222Good]

Let me preface this post with this statement:
It's what our country was founded on: Freedom of religion (or no religion!)

This link is a long read, but I think everyone should be educated about the topic
Park51
It's interesting that Con Edison actually owns half the building.
It's also interesting, and confusing, as to why part of the project is called a Prayer Room (seating up to 2000) instead of a mosque. The wife of the Imam said, "You can't stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there. With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it." (from the above link)

This link discusses the apparent practice of mosque building as a display of victory and territorial advance.
Symbol of Conquest
If this were true, it would kind of make sense. The World Trade Center was a symbol of western capitalism and power.

I was in Manhattan that day, as a number of other members of this site also were. It was a terrifying day that I will never forget for the rest my life.

Really, I personally (just me!) think that just about all religions suck. If you are not a member, well you are just not quite good enough - at best! At worst, you are less than human.

When I first heard about this, what came to mind were the Carmelite nuns who wanted to build a convent right next to the Auschwitz death camp. It was to be built as a place for reconciliation and prayer. Sound familiar? Of course, they had to plant a huge cross there, too. Frankly, the insensitivity of that, and this, is gross to me.

Let them build it in New Jersey! (local joke, really!)

[Diva]

Freedom must begin somewhere.

[Corkey]

If this community center is not built I fear the terrorist will have won. Because there is nothing worse to me than to loose the 1st amendment rights guaranteed in our Constitution. It doesn't matter that I am not a "believer" in any institutional religion, the very act of stopping this building being rebuilt will effect all religious freedoms, not just Islam. Hypocrisy runs deep and the only way the terrorists win is if we give in to fear. You can't have it both ways, "We get to have our" christian houses there, but no one else can. That is the hypocrisy of the religious right wing that takes our rights and spits on them. Build it, and then we all win.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

hey ALH-

i highlighted the part of your post i am speaking to.
here is an interview with a woman whose pregnant daughter was killed in 9/11 that i posted earlier on in the thread.

Thanks so much for re-posting this. I watch "Keith" often, but missed this one. Thinking that my friend, a survivor might be involved with this group. Would make sense.

I know this is a tough one for so many and I was home only a couple of days from a trip back to NYC when it hit. Just was with these friends and some family, danced at one of the music production at the Towers during lunch hour that used to go there. Frankly, I loved going to those buildings. But, we can't allow the hate-filled bigotry based upon so much misinformation take away some of the things I have hope will be restored to the US, namely our rich immigrant history and the contributions so many have brought here.

[MsMerrick]

Kooch, not really clear what you are saying. While your first link, the wikipedia one, seems not too unbalanced, your second link is clearly inflammatory and not based on facts. Since it starts off by claiming that a Mosque is being built on the ground where the Twin Towers were, right away, I see lies and falsehoods, and slanderous utterances.
You also quote a bit from the Imam's wife, but not the whole sentence, which makes more sense than your snippet.
Full quote :
While the media widely described the center as a mosque, and the protests were against the mosque, the Initiative's official blog portrayed it as a community center with prayer space, making comparisons to the YMCA or Jewish Community Center.[85] The Initiative said that some services planned for the Cordoba House, such as the restaurant and performance center, disqualify it from being a mosque.[86] Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf’s wife and partner, in August 2010 also said:

We insist on calling it a prayer space and not a mosque, because you can use a prayer space for activities apart from prayer. You can't stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there. With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it.[51]

The official website for the facility says it will include "a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community".[87]

Besides the Muslim prayer space, the Initiative's plan includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, and a food court serving halal dishes.[37][21][66][74][88][7]

I am not sure what that quote meant to you, but want it meant to me, was that they don't want fanatical hatred filled fanatics, using the space.
As a native New Yorker, born in New York City, and also quite present that day, I am fully for, not letting the Terrorists win, and that means, supporting the Constitution, and refusing to discriminate against any religion. Either we are better then them or we are not.
There's no religion in my book that is better than any other, and I gather in yours. ( Which seems to mark a change for you ? ) but I do believe in the Constitution, and the rule of law, and that means a balanced across the board freedom, for religions.
At some point, I wondered a lot, how Hitler, came to power..and..what about the everyday people / Did they collectively rise up and decide to just over look evil ? Or did they decide to participate. How did that all happen ? Look into it sometime, because I tell you true, the way things are going, the rise of populist "leaders" like Palin and Beck, and this Islamaphobia, correlate way too closely .. Evil does exist, imho, but it exists wherever ignorance and sloppy thinking trump reason, not some shadowy figure.

[SuperFemme]

I'm going to post this list again, because it irks me to hear people cite how traumatized they are by 9/11 and use that as a reason to tell "them" to go build it somewhere else.

So apparently, although many Muslim people died that day, their grief is not as important as that of a non-Muslim person. Muslim grief is something that should be swept under the carpet, the only deaths being mourned are those of the men who took over the planes. Because we lost the chance to kill them ourselves.

Muslim people who died that day:

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

I hurt in my heart when I think about the families of these people watching this bullshit circus in the media. To me it is akin to spitting on a grave.

Fear is indeed, the great mind killer, because when I see incredibly intelligent people latch onto that fear and participate in Islamophobia I die a little inside.

I have to wonder if anyone noticed the parallels between Islamophobia and the wave of hatred/racism against MY people: Hispanics? It seems being brown is now a viable reason to put a target on ones back in this country and expect those same brown people to be fucking grateful for the small amount of civil liberties they may still receive. So gross, and so scary and when I read Merrick speaking of the Holocaust in comparison to what is happening here in this country right now I know she is right.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand this. So you are saying that even though you do not endorse or agree with what Mssrs Morris or Gaffney are saying, and even though you do not put a disclaimer along the lines of "the views I quote do not represent my views..." you quoted the aforementioned gentlemen and expect us NOT to conclude--quite reasonably--that you are posting their views because you agree with them. Really? See, if I'm going to post something quoting from someone that I disagree with but that view is representative of a position I disagree with, I will take the time to make certain that the reader *knows* that I'm quoting someone I disagree with. If I don't, then I work under the idea that the reader will conclude (correctly) that if I'm quoting someone then I'm doing so because I *agree* with them. I find your disclaimers somewhat disingenuous, FA.

So your argument appears to be that you want a place where "all people can come together", well why not, say, the site of the strip club? Is that also not a place that all people could come together in? And does NYC *really* need another strip club? Which will be a place more welcoming to the largest number of people, a strip club or the Cordoba house?

Also, if I pulled a made-up statistic like, say, "20% of all Christian churches are not Reconstructionist or Dominionist or otherwise theocratic and simply want to worship in peace..." would you believe that statistic? Look, I'm going to preempt the "I have a right to my opinion" spiel and state that your right to your opinion and your right to express it are not at issue here. However, your right to *express* an opinion does not insulate that opinion from being challenged nor does it render you immune to having said expression eviscerated if it is not based upon solid, reliable evidence (yes, such an animal exists).

Cheers
Aj