June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by Julie

I keep thinking about the question Snow posed: Is Femme your Gender?

I came out at 17 as Gay. I realized at 18 I was a Lesbian -- This was the 70's. My relationships were definitely gender misogynistic Butch/Femme relationships and I was clearly in Butch led relationships. I grew up!!!

I went through a feminist phase and retaliated against anything patriarchal and discovered once again, my Femme. I have held onto her and not let her go. Though, I did go through a Femme phase, where I didn't want to be classified as Femme, as the butches I knew (back then) thought the best Femme's were bimbo's. I couldn't play Bimbo Femme, even when I tried. However, I remained Femme.

I suppose Femme is my gender. I don't really connect with Lesbian, though I am and I (like Snow) hold onto my Dyke -- Being a Dyke is important to me. I am a Femme Dyke. And I am a Lesbian, in some odd sort of Sapphic historic way.

When I refer to myself, I am always Femme and sometimes Dyke. And definitely repeating myself... But I am processing this... It's been a long time for me since I came out. I haven't really ever had to analyze it, as I just did.

Signed Julie Femme Dyke who knows her Sapphic history.

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.

[Novelafemme]

For tonights class I am presenting on Cherrie Moraga's Queer Aztlan.

She writes the following about human relations and desire:

"When we are moved sexually toward someone, there is a profound opportunity to observe the microcosm of all human relations, to understand power dynamics both obvious and subtle, and to meditate on the core creative impulse of all desire. Desire is never politically correct. In sex, gender roles, race relations, and our collective histories of oppression and human connection are enacted."

Another portion that I love...especially the final sentence:

"As a lesbian, I don't pretend to understand the intricacies or intimacies of Chicano gay desire, but we do share the fact that our "homosexuality"-our feelings about sex, sexual power and domination, femininity and masculinity, family, loyalty, and morality-has been shaped by heterosexist culture and society. And such, we have plenty to tell heterosexuals about themselves."

Fabulous thread! More later. I'm off to class now.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I tried Lesbian on, I wanted to be one soooooooooooo bad but the women's group I belonged to found out I was into Leather. I was asked to leave because there was no way possible I could claim Feminist nor Lesbian because of the person I was under. He was cisgender male (gay). I was really hurt I don't think now that I look back at it that it was the main issue.

I think the Leather thing was a good way to get rid of the Leather Dyke of Color who wouldn't let it go that the Women of Color were not being allowed to represent as they could and should be.

That's a whole other topic though.

[Novelafemme]

Oh, as for my gender...I'm with the Judith Butlers out there in that I view my own gender presentation as a performance I act out day to day. And since I'm not done performing I suppose my gender isn't an absolute. But I'll take Femme for $500, Alex.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

oh wait if I think about it I'd really like a June Cleaver sub femme wearing a cute little dress, cooking, cleaning and waiting on my hand and foot. It would bring out my masculine energy and I'd have to throw her down and fuck her. Damn I'm so sexist! lol

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.

i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.

Make sense?

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Interesting.

I guess my gender is more than one as well...

I am a woman-lesbian-femme. I hate putting femme last and don't really mean it that way. It's sorta all of those at the same time. Without one of those, it wouldn't be me.

I love the word Dyke. I've never claimed it. But, i think it's a cool word.

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.

I enjoy the word dyke. It says power to me. power in me, in my woman loving way.

I'd say dyke femme.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.


Make sense?

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.

[girl_dee]

When i was young the word Dyke was used (in my memory) by men who were referring to Butch women. Those butch women to me were strong, fearless and intrepid. Like my Syr..... i wanted to be like them, (the fearless part not the butch part).

So i hope i carry some of the traits that i admired. i feel proud to be a Dyke!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Yes I get it and honestly I'm not really holding on it all any more. Of course I might always have that little voice in my head as I check myself. I don't feel I am caught up in gender per se but I could be.

And for me much of this is more about fetishism then anything else. I love role-fucking and anything that fucks the mind.

I think I'm ok here but I know what you mean and respect it.

I am in favor of all things Fetish!

I can easily fetishsize all things vintage.

RAWR

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

i claim Dyke! i love that word! i think i love it because at one time it meant something derogatory..

i think i am femme first

Femme Dyke has always been my favorite.

sometimes femme feels icky to me. But for all intent and purposes, within this bf culture I am.

When someone calls me a lesbian it makes the hairs on my neck stand up. I prefer Queer. I'm not sure why.

I claim Goddess.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

When i was young the word Dyke was used (in my memory) by men who were referring to Butch women. Those butch women to me were strong, fearless and intrepid. Like my Syr..... i wanted to be like them, (the fearless part not the butch part).

So i hope i carry some of the traits that i admired. i feel proud to be a Dyke!

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

sometimes femme feels icky to me. But for all intent and purposes, within this bf culture I am.

When someone calls me a lesbian it makes the hairs on my neck stand up. I prefer Queer. I'm not sure why.

I claim Goddess.

I too use Queer, it goes with my politics, beliefs, life, so on. I like that I can be long to the alphabet soup (LGBTQI).


I am hoping novela comes back to discuss gender. culture.id's and how they differ.

[Sachita]

oh I can totally get into the vintage glam thing! I was never much for leather per se. I mean I love boots, gloves, maybe a corset. But give me a velvet gown, pearls, stilettos and opera gloves any day.

for a hot scene I might be more inclined to wear something silky, revealing and easy access.

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by spritzerJ

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

Yes I quote myself these days... I was thinking about my "strong enough to let go" part.

1. that is my strength. my path to learn how to let go. It is the lesson I needed to learn and learn again.
2. letting go is my expression of power. over that which feels binding. It is my expression of power to choose that which binds me.
3. I find it just as powerful the expression of being strong enough to be in control, to not let go, to hold on.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am in favor of all things Fetish!

I can easily fetishsize all things vintage.

RAWR

i SO love the cupcake dress!

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

I am still reading the posts in this most wonderful thought-provoking thread.

I also, Snowy, related to the Momma aspect from the earlier posting. That is where, I think, my own idea of part of how I learned growing up to identify. Since I got married at the baby young age of 16, and started raising my kids at the age of 17, and the fact that my own mother had died when I was 13, I just really didn't have a lot of examples to draw upon. I basically had to just DO. Do my best. Stumble through the best I could. Try to remember what my own mom was like (hey, at that age I really wasn't paying a lot of attention to her and what she did, how she did it, and certainly never spoke to her about WHY she did what she did and what she may have thought about it!)

So I became the nurturer. That was a role I had been thrust into when my mom had her cerebral hemmorhage and slipped into a 7 month coma before dying. I was the middle child, and already did the whole peace-keeping role. So I had to grow into the momma figure for my younger siblings, even though the next one down was only a year younger than me. My older siblings were just older enough to have their own busy lives and could not be bothered. Just the way it was.

I *like* taking care of others. Doing nice things for them. Pleasing them. As I have gotten older, it has become more of a choice to me whether I will do something or not, though. I remember talking to someone about getting coffee for my partner in the mornings. She asked me if I did this as a "duty", or was it because I really WANTED to get her coffee. I told her that since I was already getting my OWN coffee, it made sense and was not an inconvenience to get someone else's. Do I let others do things for me? Yes, of course.

As to the Femme/gender topic, I like Jo came out very late in life, and I don't know if that colors my viewpoint. I am female. I am a woman. That is my gender. I am also queer, that is who I love and how I want my sex. Finding myself to "Femme" was a whole other process and journey. My Femme is not just the fact that I still like to take care of others at times. My Femme, to ME, is my softer side, my open heart, my hopes for my future, my vulnerability, my fierceness, my courage, my toughness, my grit, my wisdom. It also speaks out and YELLS and SCREAMS and HOWLS and DEMANDS to be HEARD when I am around a Butch. It demands to be recognized, demands to be seen and appreciated and loved.

I will close with a cute little true story. Back in the day, when I was very active in the leather community in FL, one of my nicknames was Juney. As in June Cleaver. I have always been so damned white-bread in my looks. I am a mother and grandmother, for Gods sake! Frumpy at times. Well, when I was running the largest BDSM social network in the State of FL, and Topping others, and losing myself in bottoming to others, the fact that I looked so ordinary, while at the same time was just so fucking KINKY, well, it just warmed my twisted little heart! I do love me a good mind fuck!

So hell to the yeah, I still to this day answer to "Juney". Proudly!

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by spritzerJ

I know I carry some of those traits. I didn't always. And I know that I am strong. Strong enough to let go too.

Another part of Dyke to me is trust in myself. I've got that too these days.

I bet you have your own twist on that Dyke fearless too Cajun Dee.

Queer does not fit for me. Never has.

I never claimed Dyke but I like it.

Lesbian feels the best.

It is exactly who and what I am.

[Martina]

This is a towel from the fifties. She's tossing the dirty dishes out the window. Ironically appropriate image for a dish towel.

You know there had to have been a lot of Erma Bombeck style humor about the absurd expectations placed on women.