Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.

I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accomodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them?

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

Medusa,

You raise an some excellent points!

As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality.

Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it?

The scope of this is quite amazing.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accommodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them?

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?

Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

When I was looking at the map, my eyes went left. Weird. lol
I am sure it means something epimystical.

Glad I asked, I thought you were saying do away with Sirius.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?



Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

See my post in this thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...264#post387264

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Kobi

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="2"]
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

i have -- because i am a lesbian.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

All lesbians are given the you are not a real woman shit.

]

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.


i am frequently. i am apple shaped. i am also an androgynous femme. Lots of STRAIGHT women get mistaken for men too.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.

Bullshit. i am a dyke. i was told that many times by ignorant people. i was told i just couldn't accept my femininity or my place in the world as a woman.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.

HUH??? How many femmes have been ignored or ridiculed by dykes for their femininity?????

------------------------------------------

[Heart]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

[Heart]

As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.

"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question."
I have my queerness called into question routinely.

"As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question."
"Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive.

"As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine".
Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms.

"As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man."
I will be mistaken for straight.

"As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man."
I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good.

"As a femme, she will never be too feminine."
My femininity will be objectified.

[Martina]

i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.

i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda.

COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above in speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

Heart,

My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine.

Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature.

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence.

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by from BV site

"Is BUTCH Voices trying to tell me how I identify, what if I am BUTCH and not Masculine of Center?
(answer)-No, BUTCH Voices affirms the ability for each person to self-identify in a way that fits them best. When BUTCH Voices uses the term Masculine of Center (MoC) the intention is to quickly and succinctly summarize who we are at large. For many in our community, the label BUTCH is not inclusive, but we all unite at our 2nd National Conference under the big BUTCH Voices tent, because of our shared experiences."

If Butch wasn't good enough to "quickly and succinctly summarize who we are" why the hell is it called butchvoices? And what makes "masculine of center" any kind of a better summary especially for women ID Female ID Butches, a lot of Tomboys and the like... or even flamer butches etc etc etc etc etc etc.....? My Dad on the other hand might enjoy the conference, since he'd fit the bill "masculine of center" I'd think better than tons butches for crap sake...

I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along.

Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/

[BullDog]

I know right Metro.

Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center?

[BullDog]

Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:

http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder

In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices.

My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella."

[Dude]

I am glad some of this is getting discussed.

I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks
straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man
by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work.
I dont want to be a straight man.
Who I am is the first butch (woman)
ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman)
to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever
had has been in a male dominated field.
I want to be seen.
This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me.


In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point.
Really? really.
To what?
The ultimate male? huh?
I have the correct amount of T for me,already.


This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch.
Best way I can think to describe it.
Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that
too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of
raging butch menopause.

I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir".
The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated.

Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel
accepted and ok just how I am.
I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok.
I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

[bright_arrow]

I prefer to skip, but can be convinced to leap I supposeee...

I fall within the 'lesbian' category, but I like femme dyke more A redheaded, geeky, curvy femme dyke

[tapu]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

I had that sort of thing happen to me too...and still do in most Lesbian circles. I am wild and on the lunatic fringe because i am girly. Somehow showing up in a sundress and high heel sandals is more shocking than full latex and a gas mask. It is insane. And God forbit I wear pink to the Dyke bar...

Originally Posted by tapu

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians.

lot's of non Lesbians here