Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

If this community center is not built I fear the terrorist will have won. Because there is nothing worse to me than to loose the 1st amendment rights guaranteed in our Constitution. It doesn't matter that I am not a "believer" in any institutional religion, the very act of stopping this building being rebuilt will effect all religious freedoms, not just Islam. Hypocrisy runs deep and the only way the terrorists win is if we give in to fear. You can't have it both ways, "We get to have our" christian houses there, but no one else can. That is the hypocrisy of the religious right wing that takes our rights and spits on them. Build it, and then we all win.

Corkey:

If *I* were, say, a high up in Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda I would be sending money--as much as I could--to the cause of *preventing* this community center from being built. I would task someone with showing up at every single protest against it--no matter where it happens. I would task someone else with simply hanging out at RedState, Drudge, FOXNews.com and every other right-wing website and copy and paste editorials and comments to same about this community center. And then, when the side that is convinced that this community center might as well be Al Qaeda Central, I would take all that video, all those interviews and every single word written in opposition to the Cordoba House and make movie after movie, pamphlet after pamphlet, showing how Americans behave. Each one would start and end the same. The beginning would be quoting the First Amendment and then the words "And here is American religious freedom in action..." followed by the quotes and images and voices of opposition. The end would simply read: Any Questions?

We are *writing* the Hamas propaganda FOR THEM! And the thing that would be funny if it weren't so damn tragic, is that the people carrying the propaganda water for Al Qaeda et. al. are the MOST religious and MOST conservative people in America! If Usama Bin Laden is alive he is laughing hysterically as he watches this play out.

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Here is why, I keep having nightmares. The echos, of Hitler's historical rise to power, are ringing in my ears.
1) Pick someone , a religion for instance , slightly different from the mainstream , blame them for everything
2) Spread false rumors, that they eat children, abuse them, whatever, there's plenty of hot buttons out there..
3) Paint yourself as the only moral person, sworn to stop those horrible people
4) Start small, be sympathetic but, firm that although you have no real problem, for their own safety perhaps, they should wear stars .. so others can know, and truly it is for your own good

Oh yeah, make sure you don't allow anyone to practice the religion, but again, with a lot of sympathy just cite a lot of crap and incite people further
Seriously, this gives me nightmares...
That intelligent people can quote or cite, such incredibly hate mongering people, with false rumors, and call that "presenting the other side" ..scares the crap out of me...
This is how it starts..

Merrick:

As I said last week, I'm working my way through William Shrier's tome "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and you are, of course, spot on. This pattern is well known and the path well worn. Now, are we in Germany in 1933? No, not yet. We are, however, in Germany circa 1931. We have (and it PAINS me no end to say this) a weak liberal government that is not willing to stand up for itself (the Obama administration and Congressional Democrats), we have a proto-fascist movement that is gaining strength and being allowed to believe that statements like "2nd amendment remedies" in response to elections that their side loses is appropriate (it's not) and we have conservative politicians who do not necessarily buy into the proto-fascism but are willing to use the proto-fascists toward electoral ends, believing that this will work out in their favor this time. It won't. The people who brought Hitler to power, ultimately, were the conservative forces in Germany--not the National Socialists, but the German Army and the German industrialists who thought that the Nazi's could be controlled. The army wanted arms and the Nazis were promising to rearm Germany in defiance of Versailles. The industrialists wanted someone to put a stop to the socialists, the communists and the trade unionists and didn't much care who did the stopping just so long as they were stopped.

I wonder if, 50 years from now, another historian will be writing a book "The Rise and Fall of the American Empire" and stating repeatedly, as Shrier did in his work, that the leaders of the American Theocracy TOLD the world and their countrymen what they were up to. Ann Coulter, Dick Morris, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Sarah Palin and their fellow travelers have ALL stated, without pulling punches or reserve, what their agenda is and what they would do. We pretend that they don't mean it at our peril.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am shocked when I hear things like.... Not in our city.

A lot of Muslims reside there too. Should they too get out of your city? (general you)

AJ said it best in another thread.

To be Brown, or Muslim is a scary fucking time in America, either we are terrorists, taking jobs, building facilities that are training monsters, decapitating folks in the desert.


It's coming, soon you will want us to wear some symbol, you'll want us in lil camps cause you want to make sure who we are....



This Saturday more of that fear is gonna be spread..

On September 11th, 2010, from 6pm - 9pm, we will burn the Koran on the property of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, FL in remembrance of the fallen victims of 9/11 and to stand against the evil of Islam. Islam is of the devil

In the name of god it's being done, in the name of all that is good, so yeah if you can't see how all the above I mentioned isn't coming I don't know. I fear for our youth the messages they are getting and how dismissed and belittled they feel when something that is holy to them is being burnt and disrespected cause well...

They are comin' to get cha.

Racism in America is at its dangerous....

[SuperFemme]

We really ARE playing into the hands of Al Queda. Already, US Servicemen are being attacked as Afghan people protest the burning o the Koran by burning American Flags and what not. This idiot pastor is putting the lives of our young ones in the military in grave danger, and does NOT care.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. --

The pastor at Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville has vowed to burn Korans next weekend on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- a plan that has sparked a fiery and emotional protest in Afghanistan.

Pastor Terry Jones called the book burning a warning. He said he plans to send a message to Muslim extremists by burning copies of the Koran on his church's lawn.

"We believe people are afraid of radical Islam. We hope it brings awareness," Jones said.

The pastor's plans to torch the holy books ignited outrage in Kabul. Hundreds of Afghans shouted anti-American slogans.

The protesters burned American flags, along with a replica of the pastor.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39034907

[dreadgeek]

Well, it seems that there ARE cool heads making news about this;


Item 1:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/new...ex.html?hpt=T2

Numerous faith leaders in recent weeks have expressed concerns about hate crimes against American Muslims in the runup to this weekend's anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks, which coincides with the holiday of Eid-al-Fitr marking the conclusion of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Attorney General Eric Holder is slated to discuss the concern at a Tuesday afternoon meeting with religious leaders at the Justice Department. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton may weigh in on the debate as well when she joins a Ramadan celebration at the State Department Tuesday night. Clinton is expected to deliver remarks around 8 p.m. ET.

Item 2:

General Petraeus is also warning that this idea of burning the koran is going to cause problems for troops still in the Afghan theater of operations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11209738


Cheers
Aj

[chefhmboyrd]

this is ridiculous. if they were burning bibles in Afganistan, they would want to nuke them
ignorance......

it wouldn't matter if the aformentioned Mosque was built 1 block or ten blocks away from "Ground Zero", someone would have a big opinion on how it was "disrespectful"

the terrorist acts made on America were not made by the entire Muslim world, but if these ignorant assholes keep burning the Koran, and saying inflammatory things about other people's religion, we will just make more enemies.
i am neither Jew, Christian, nor Muslim...... and if you read what i have been reading in the news and on the internet, you would understand why
all i see from any of the "organized" religions is hate and war and intolerance.......

[SuperFemme]

i wonder if i travel to Iraq if the civilian population there would be justified in killing me? after all, the death toll of Iraqi citizens is around 106,000. these deaths were mostly at the hands of Americans.

so i just have to wonder about the crazed sense of entitlement our country has?

around 8,000 total from 9/11 and war in Iraq is our body count so far i think.

8k to 106k. who should be burning what?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am shocked when I hear things like.... Not in our city.

A lot of Muslims reside there too. Should they too get out of your city? (general you)

AJ said it best in another thread.

To be Brown, or Muslim is a scary fucking time in America, either we are terrorists, taking jobs, building facilities that are training monsters, decapitating folks in the desert.

As the calendar inexorably marches toward what would be my mothers 88th birthday and having just left behind in mid-August what would have been my father's 88th, I find myself grateful that they did not live see America take this turn. About 65 years ago, my father--along with a whole lot of other Americans--began to demobilize as WW II closed. My father, as part of the 761st Tank Battalion, earned a Purple Heart and Bronze star for his actions in that war. My parents, my father particularly since he SAW the camps, drilled into us that we had an obligation to make good a promise of 'Never Again', a promise that to our (all of humanity) eternal shame we have not made good on. They also drilled into us that at the time that Hitler came to power, Germany was the most educated, liberal and culturally advanced nation in Europe if not the world. They made us aware that if it could happen in Germany it could just as easily happen here. Seeing their country do this--and keep in mind that these are people who lived through Jim Crow, both my parents had siblings who were the victims of physical violence that cost one uncle his life and another uncle the ability to walk right--would break their hearts.

As my parent's generation exits the stage I am seeing one of my great cultural fears come to pass; namely that we would soon forget once the last generation of Americans who had stared evil--real, true, visceral, unmitigated evil--right in the face were gone. And here we are. My father, if he were alive, would be on his way to D.C. for the 2 October rally and would tell everyone who would listen that "we've heard this song before" just because now the words are in English and not German and just because the targets are Muslims and not Jews, doesn't mean that this isn't the same old ugly song. I understand that a lot of people on the other side are people of good will. I also understand that they *really and genuinely* believe that 8 of 10 mosques are *actually* terrorist training facilities carefully disguised as places of monotheistic worship.

Here's the thing--and to anyone on the other side, I want you to really read what I'm saying here and then sit with these questions--does anyone really believe that the Germans didn't think that the Jews were *really and genuinely* a threat to all things German? Does anyone here believe that the Germans didn't *actually* think that Jews were trying to bring down Germany or that Jews controlled 'all the banks' or that Jews didn't have all kinds of bizarre rituals wherein they killed Christian babies? Is there a single person reading these words that has ANY doubt that every German who turned in a Jewish neighbor, every German who was in the SS or the SA, every German who saw the persecution of the Jews, didn't think that THEY were on the side of right and good? That THEY didn't really hate or fear the Jews per se, they just needed to make certain that they weren't a threat? It's comforting but wholly wrong to believe that the evil done by people is done with the perpetrators knowing that they are doing evil. That is so incorrect that it is not even wrong.

Rather, the Germans thought that THEY were on the side of good in slaughtering the Jews and the gypsies and the homosexuals and the communists and the socialists and the trade unionists. White segregationists didn't think they were evil or propping up an evil system, rather they believed that THEY were on the side of right and good. The Soviets under Stalin did not think that their system was dehumanizing and cruel, they were doing what needed to be done to promote the interests of the proletariat. The Khmer Rouge thought that it was necessary to kill the writers, teachers, lawyers, artists, musicians and others who did not have sufficient revolutionary fever or the children of same because they carried the bourgeois taint of their parents. The Chinese under Mao, the Serbs under Milosevic or the Rawandans all believed the same thing as they committed stomach-turning atrocities. They were on the side of good, the other guys were on the side of evil and the elimination--as regrettable as it might be--just had to happen in order to protect all that was good and noble.

In the name of good, righteousness, nobility and, ironically, freedom we are poised to do the same thing to at least two other groups in this country--Muslims and Hispanics. If you aren't a Muslim or a Hispanic, you might feel safe but don't put your money on that bet. You aren't. If you are reading this then you're queer and make NO mistake that they will come for us. Now, they might get around to us AFTER they are done with the Muslims and the Hispanics but that's actually counter to the historical pattern. The pattern in Germany was that, actually, homosexuals were really part of the test run, to see what they could get away with.

If you are queer, your white skin will not protect you. If you are queer, your Christian religion will not protect you. You'll be gotten around to eventually because movements that seek to cleanse or purge the Other are never satisfied with one group, there's always one OTHER group preventing the nation from achieving its true historical zenith that is its due and when that group is removed THEN all will be well. I know this sounds alarmist but that's only because we're on the 'before' side of whatever historical event we seem hell-bent on hurtling toward. Maybe I'm wrong. I want to be. I hope I am. So far, though, everyday we seem to be taking more and more steps toward an abyss.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

[Jude]

Standing ovation for Dreadgeek's post <clap, clap, clap, clap.......>

[dreadgeek]

Before I go to lunch, since this is on my mind, I wanted to post and I hope folks, particularly folks on the other side of this issue, will think about it:

If I stand up and shout loudly and long about how much I value and treasure MY right to free speech or MY right to practice the religion of my choice, I've told you nothing much about my commitment to those principles. Any fool, once she figures out she has a right to free speech and religion, is going to be all in favor of her rights. If, on the other hand, I stand up and shout loudly and long about my support of the right of expression of the person who espouses an idea that I not just disagree with but find odious and deeply offensive, NOW you've learned something useful about how much I mean it when I say I believe in free speech. Likewise, if I stand up and defend the right of someone to practice the religion that I not only don't practice, but wouldn't practice if you paid me, that I don't know much about and what I do know, I don't like THEN you can tell something about how deep my commitment is to freedom of conscience and religion.

The First Amendment is not, as many Americans suppose, there to protect Christianity in a nation that is majority Christian. If you are a Christian, your religious freedom is protected because your religion is in the majority. The First Amendment is there to protect the Jew, the Muslim, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Atheist, the Pagan, the Sikh and others. Yes, it protects Christians as well but Christians don't *need* the protection--the minority religions do. In the same vein, the First Amendment doesn't protect the popular opinion. It isn't there to protect proclaiming that Jesus is Lord nor is it there to protect chanting USA! USA! USA! at the least provocation. Rather, it is there to protect the scholar who says that there's scant evidence that the historical Jesus actually existed and that the Gospel stories borrow liberally from other myths that were known in the Levant at the beginning of the Common Era. It is there to protect the person who says "well, America is good but then there's slavery or the decimation of the native populations or the unprovoked invasion of Iraq..." The popular position NEEDS no protection, it is the least popular opinion, the one that you wish the speaker would shut the hell up and never say another word, that needs protection.

That is how we know whether someone means it when they say that they believe in free speech and freedom of conscience.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

There's no religion in my book that is better than any other, and I gather in yours. ( Which seems to mark a change for you ? ) but I do believe in the Constitution, and the rule of law, and that means a balanced across the board freedom, for religions.
At some point, I wondered a lot, how Hitler, came to power..and..what about the everyday people / Did they collectively rise up and decide to just over look evil ? Or did they decide to participate. How did that all happen ? Look into it sometime, because I tell you true, the way things are going, the rise of populist "leaders" like Palin and Beck, and this Islamaphobia, correlate way too closely .. Evil does exist, imho, but it exists wherever ignorance and sloppy thinking trump reason, not some shadowy figure.

Outside of 'the banality of evil' the best sentiment I've ever read on the evil that ordinary people will do is this one from Terry Pratchett:

"And it all meant this: there are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot be easily duplicated by a normal, kindly family man who just comes into work every day and has a job to do." (Small Gods)

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Why is it not OK for this to be built?? What is *your* reasoning?

As for a place for all to come and pay their respects, I believe a few people have pointed out that a memorial is being built on ground zero..

This of course has not happened 9 years later, why is no one up in arms about this?


So I ask cause I am curious to know your opinion, why can't a Community Center/ Mosque be built where it is being built?

What is so wrong about that?

Oh, and I am not seeing where anyone called anyone names.....

[Corkey]

I do it all the time, and my wife loves me anyway.
Thanks for clarification FA

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

I don't think I can know what people's hearts are like. I do think I know what people's thoughts are based upon what they write. But thank you, I'm glad you find my tone civil; I strive for my posts to always be civil.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Have I ever put my foot in my mouth? Absolutely! Part of why I can be verbose is that I try to make it absolutely clear what I am and am not saying. Being a writer I know that the reader cannot and should not have to try to get inside my head to fill in the things I think are self-evident because they are self-evident to ME. I am curious why you chose the sources that you did.

As far as the having a place for people of all faiths to come together why would it have to be at the Cordoba house site? The argument that the community center should not be built close to the WTC site because it would be better to have a place for people of all faiths to come together seems, well, let's just say I don't follow the logic. The same could be said of ANY building use that was not an interfaith center. "We want to build a 100 story shopping mall a block over from the WTC site..." "Why not build a 100 story center where all people could come together...." See how that works? Extending the logic--and I'm taking your words to mean what they appear to mean--then really ANY building around the WTC site would be just as well used as an ecumenical center. So why is it that the use that would result in a community center frequented by Muslims is questionable while the use as, say, a Burger King or sushi restaurant or, for that matter, 100 story shopping mall wouldn't be?

As far as your statement "who am I to judge..." well, you are a citizen of a democratic republic and so, in point of fact, it is kind of in the job description of citizen to judge such things. If someone wanted to, for instance, open a strip club across the street from the high school I would have issues about that. I would go and make certain that those issues received a public hearing. Am I anti-strip clubs? No, not particularly. Am I anti-sex? Absolutely not! However, I judge it inappropriate to put a strip club across the street from a high school. Am I making a judgement? Yes. That's part of being a responsible citizen. However, in making said judgement, I should expect that my position will be challenged by people who may hold a contrary view. I should be expected to be prepared to explain my reasoning and, if my reasoning is shown to be flawed, incoherent, or based upon non-factual or non-evidentiary grounds then I should also be prepared to change my position.

As I said in my post to you, all of us arguing the other side, are simply looking to understand the why of it and so far, I can't say that I've seen, read or heard a cogent argument about why the place shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't seen a principle applied that any person would want applied universally without favor or prejudice.

Btw. just as an aside--I am defending the rights of practitioners of a religion I do not practice and would not practice (because I don't 'do' theism generally or monotheism specifically) because I believe that minority faiths, ethnic minorities, racial minorities, and queer people are the canaries in the social coal mine. If this is happening to Cordoba house today, and the mosque (which IS a mosque) in Tennessee or California tomorrow, then it's only a matter of time before someone gets around to noticing the couple of million Americans who practice Zen Buddhism and decide that because Japan was Buddhist (which is sort of correct but Shinto was the majority religion in Japan during the War) and since we fought a war 70 years ago, it's not a good idea for there to be Buddhist temples in America.

Btw. the next time you hear someone say something along the theme of "they can build their mosque, just not there" run this one around your head and see what you come up with:

"Blacks can marry anyone they like, as long as the person isn't white."
"Blacks can live anywhere they want, just not next door."
"Gays and lesbians can marry any person they want, just so long as it is a member of the opposite gender."

Different words, identical sentiments. It's like being in favor of, say, your neighbor coming for dinner provided that they don't eat or drink anything.


cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

Petraeus: Burning Quran Endangers Americans



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129701795

[dreadgeek]

I was watching Olbermann and there was a young man on with Afghanistan and Iraq Veterans of America who made a good point that I missed. There are still troops at the tip-of-the-spear in Afghanistan. The Afghanis and the foreign fighters who might be in that country to fight the Americans have satellite TV and Internet access as well. They see news that we see through Al Jazeera or the BBC or CNN World. This Saturday a church in Florida is going to burn the Qur'an as a sign of solidarity with the victims and families of 9/11. This young man, in talking about this event, said something that I think is germane here: images of the Qur'an being will be seen in Afghanistan and there are young men and women whose lives will be put at risk. Images of Americans protesting the building of an Islamic community center will be seen in Afghanistan. Those images will put the lives of soldiers at risk.

My son is one of those soldiers. What we do here in America has consequences off shore. Something that perhaps we might want to think about.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I was watching Olbermann and there was a young man on with Afghanistan and Iraq Veterans of America who made a good point that I missed. There are still troops at the tip-of-the-spear in Afghanistan. The Afghanis and the foreign fighters who might be in that country to fight the Americans have satellite TV and Internet access as well. They see news that we see through Al Jazeera or the BBC or CNN World. This Saturday a church in Florida is going to burn the Qur'an as a sign of solidarity with the victims and families of 9/11. This young man, in talking about this event, said something that I think is germane here: images of the Qur'an being will be seen in Afghanistan and there are young men and women whose lives will be put at risk. Images of Americans protesting the building of an Islamic community center will be seen in Afghanistan. Those images will put the lives of soldiers at risk.

My son is one of those soldiers. What we do here in America has consequences off shore. Something that perhaps we might want to think about.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, those images will and I am glad that military generals are speaking up about this. No joke about your son and all of the daughters and sons in Afghanistan.

Today while listening to the radio while out, I heard this minister just shine this whole thing on, saying that if more lives were lost, it was not our fault (his congegation planning on doing this), it is Islam's fault. I wanted to climb through the radio waves and smack him. I have a couple of good friends with kids serving in Afghanistan. The thought of them risking their lives for the likes of this minister boils my blood. One of the things our military is trying to accomplish there has to do with changing the way the US is viewed by Muslims. Many are trying to gain trust with a people that have had nothing but war and other countries occuping their country in their country for decades.

I had to just turn the radio off after hearing this- it was in response to Gen. Peteraus (sp?) speaking out about the danger this could escalate for troops. You know, I am actually starting to have physiological responses about this each and every time I hear about the buring, the community center and the coutless bites about anti-Muslim sentiments. My stomach does wrench. I think about my friends (and you, plus other members that have kids/loved ones serving) and think about what it would be like if my kid were there and this was going on. My oldest grand daughter will be 18 soon and what if she decides on a military career? It could happen.

My best to your son, Aj- and I hope these idiots don't do this.

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39049033


Petraeus Expresses Fear For the Troops

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/...chris_matthews