Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by June

And before I get back to rewiring my lamps, I want to say that how you, Sachita are feeling about taking the law into your own hands? That's how a lot of people feel about Queers, too. I am pretty sure you would be horrified if someone you knew (or didn't know) publicly stated "I think that Queer should be shot for fucking his partner up the ass" or "All those goddamn rug munchers need to die".

Broaden the spectrum of your internal justice system.

You make a good point. Because people were talking about taking justice into their own hands or expressing fantasies about what that would be like, I thought it might be useful to post some links about what happened the LAST time that was allowed in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynchin..._United_States

http://withoutsanctuary.org/ (this is a slideshow of lynching images, they are VERY disturbing)

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...chingyear.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...nchcauses.html

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/proj...ingsstate.html

http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet...t/USLynch.html

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum...9.02.04.x.html

Now, I want to say this. I get it about revenge and vengeance fantasies. I understand why people have them. But when you *indulge* in them and give voice to them, I think one should be fully and completely cognizant of what one is talking about. When one is fantasizing about the cathartic glories of vigilante justice, one should know that the reality of vigilante justice is not what you see in an old movie with Chuck Norris or Charles Bronson. Vigilante justice is brutal, it is violent and while it might seem that someone like Michael Vick would only be 'getting what he did to those dogs back' keep in mind that this is the SAME mentality that inspired the Billy Holiday song 'Strange Fruit'. To the minds of the mob, those that were hung from trees were just getting what they deserved.

Reading this thread I had a most ironic moment. Perhaps the most ironic I've had on this site so far. A justice system that I do not trust and which I KNOW is stacked against me, is also the only real protection I have against the sentiments expressed here. My only hope, irony of ironies, is that if *I* were accused of a crime the courts would get to me first and then I could get a lawyer and hopefully something resembling a fair trial (class would be my ace in the hole here).

As I said at the head of this post, I get the fantasies of righteous vengeance visited upon the deserving. But I also get it that I cannot--and most certainly should not--indulge in such fantasies. In 1998, a man named James Byrd was murdered by three white men in Texas. Not just murdered. They slit his throat, beat him with a bat, and then tied him to a truck and dragged him just to be certain. When I first heard about that, or about Matthew Sheppard or Brandon Teena, I certainly had feelings that were of vengeance visited upon those criminals. But then I thought "if I indulge this, if I let myself think that I am righteous for this stance, what POSSIBLE moral distinction can I draw between myself and the people of a small Alabama town who lynched one of my uncles in the late 20s?" I realized that there was none. I would be no better than them--lacking in a mob, I would not have the means to carry out my vengeance--but as Organicbutch's tagline says "thoughts become things, choose the good ones". I am the niece of a man who was lynched 40 years before I ever drew my first breath of air and yet his death stabs through the heart of my family to this day and it has been the best part of a century.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind or make anyone feel anything differently about this issue. Indulge your vengeance fantasies in expression here. Sleep well at night knowing that you are on the side of righteousness. But know what it is you are fantasizing about. Know what side you have chosen.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Toughy posted a link, did you go and read that page? So you're talking about YOUR personal feelings about Michael Vick, okay. I’m not sure I have anything to say about your personal feelings about anything--in fact, I can't imagine why I should say anything about your personal feelings so I won't.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by suebee

I don't think I've ever broached the subject of his state-sanctioned punishment. I worked in systems parallel to the justice systems long enough to know that the manner in which "punishments" (in "correctional" institutions ) are doled out is pretty much a crock. And I don't doubt that him being a black man entered into his sentence. But I also don't doubt that him being a sports celebrity entered into it either!

I'll say it again: what I'm talking about is how *I* perceive Michael Vick's so-called "change". Does he really "get it"? What I've seen of his statements tells me that he doesn't. Toughy came on last night and said that she has seen things about Vicks' efforts that says otherwise. I sent her a rep saying I'd love to see those statements/efforts; that maybe I'd change my mind if I was more informed.

As I said in my last post: how we see this is a matter of values. I'm certainly not saying that the issue of inequality in the justice system is NOT an important aspect, only that my focus is on the magnitude of his crimes against animals. Sachita already said that she sees his crimes as equal to crimes involving child abuse. I agree. Furthermore, considering the absolutely astounding degree of the abuse AND the number of victims, I would think this issue would concern more than just those who are animal-lovers. His involvement in dog-fighting may stem from cultural elements, but systemic abuse of animals is a BIG red flag for many other pathologies.

Again, I'm not talking about societal sentencing. I have no doubt that many on this site would boycott a convicted child abuser, or sexual offender. I feel the same way about Vick.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by June

And before I get back to rewiring my lamps, I want to say that how you, Sachita are feeling about taking the law into your own hands? That's how a lot of people feel about Queers, too. I am pretty sure you would be horrified if someone you knew (or didn't know) publicly stated "I think that Queer should be shot for fucking his partner up the ass" or "All those goddamn rug munchers need to die".

Broaden the spectrum of your internal justice system.

I might have sadistic fantasies about torturing him and taking the law into my own hands but I would not. thats the big difference. Instead of stalking him, sending hate letters and contemplating ways to make his life miserable I'll use my time constructively helping animals.

[betenoire]

For the people who haven't heard the song that Aj mentioned:

[julieisafemme]

I think for myself it might sometimes be easier to talk about, dissect and express outrage about mistreatment of animals than to touch on the mistreatment of women and my own abuse. I don't know if this is true for others. That does not though mean that I am ignoring the discussion.

Happy New Year to you all and thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I'll be thinking about in the days to come.

[Dude]

I've been chomping at the bit trying to get online to post.
Sometimes a big pause to really think about it all backwards and forwards is
the only damn way I can really see shit for what it is.

I am disgusted to say neither my sisters or father could serve impartially on a trial of a POC person for any crime. I have worked internally very hard on many levels for a hell of a lot of years to not be anything like them. I think we as white people gotta pull out the mirror look in it and most importantly feel where POC people are coming from.
Our brains absorb all types of bull shit. At some point though there must come a time when people make a choice to be fuckin rigid in their thinking because that's easier than examining under that ugly layer.

I wonder what a good lawyer's eliminating juror questions must be when defending
a POC in this world?
In all honesty would I be eliminated?
Have I deprogrammed enough ugly yet?

[Nat]

Originally Posted by betenoire

For the people who haven't heard the song that Aj mentioned:

In addition -

http://www.theamericanmuseum.org/february.10.fifth.html


Strange Fruit

First Published In
The New York Teacher
1936

Abel Meeropol, under the pseudonym Lewis Allan
(1903 – 1986)

Southern trees bear strange fruit:
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze;
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.

Pastoral scene of the gallant south:
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.

Here is fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop.
Here is a strange and bitter crop.

"On August 7, 1930, in Marion, Indiana, Thomas Shipp and Abram Smith, black men arrested the previous day on robbery, rape, and murder charges, were forcibly taken from their jail cells by a white mob, beaten savagely [possibly to death], then hanged [or hung] from a tree. Marion police officers took part in the kidnapping and murders. The photograph was taken by Lawrence Beitler. Beitler worked almost around the clock for ten straight days, printing thousands of copies of the picture, which he sold for fifty cents each. Abel Meeropol was moved to write Strange Fruit when he saw a copy of the photograph. The poem was set to music, and became the piece Billie Holiday sang to close her performances. Samuel Grafton said of the song, in 1939, "If the anger of the exploited ever mounts high enough in the South, it now has its Marseillaise." In 1999, Time Magazine named Strange Fruit the song of the century.
...
[Editor's note: Marion was not in the South. Indiana was not a Confederate state, nor did it even share a border with any of the states that seceded or remained neutral 70 years before the lynchings. Although it is comforting to believe that the demon of savagery borne of hatred lies only in the Southern character, in fact, Marion, Indiana, lies farther north than New York City.]"

NPR recently took a retrospective look at these events - worth listening to.

Strange Fruit: Anniversary Of A Lynching

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Dude

I wonder what a good lawyer's eliminating juror questions must be when defending
a POC in this world?
In all honesty would I be eliminated?
Have I deprogrammed enough ugly yet?

One lawyer will want the ugly because it will help the case. The other won't be able to eliminate the ugly because it's so pervasive. To be picked for a jury, I think you have to seem generic, bland, open but trusting of the justice system and at least a little reluctant to be there. Jury selection isn't a question of worthiness, sadly.

Ps. I would love to see more public debate about what a jury of one's peers actually should be.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by June

From the article nowandthen posted a link to. So, how is this different? It was only two dogs? This fucker "rescued" two dogs, then dispatched them when they became an inconvenience. Look at his sentence. Look at his motives. Shall we forgo the justice system for him too? String him up? Make sure he never works again? Do you get the same visceral feelings? -- June

---------------------------------------------------------------



The POS pictured on the right is David Santuomo, 43, a Columbus, OH, firefighter who last December wanted to go on a cruise with his girlfriend but did want to pay for boarding for his two adopted dogs, Sloopy and Skeeter. So to save himself some money, he took his dogs into the basement, tie them to a pipe suspending their bodies and shot them both numerous times. He then dumped their bodies on the plastic he had already laid out, wrapped them up and dumped them in a trash bin behind the fire station where he worked. What makes this even sadder is that at least two neighbors had offered to watch the dogs while he was away.

This week, as part of a plea deal, Santuomo pleaded guilty to two counts of animal cruelty and one count of possessing a criminal tool a homemade silencer, all three misdemeanors. Franklin County Municipal Judge Harland H. Hale sentenced him to 90 days, to be served over 2 years, $4,500 in restitution, $150 fine, 200 hours of community service and he cannot possess any pets or firearms for 5 years. He also has to write a letter of apology to a firefighters magazine and to readers of The Dispatch newspaper. He has yet to face an internal disciplinary hearing with Fire Chief Ned Pettus Jr.

Felony charges were not pursued because there is no felony animal cruelty law in Ohio!!

After shooting and killing the two dogs he had adopted from the humane society, Santuomo was actually so proud of himself that he bragged to fellow firefighters. Thankfully, they were were not amused, but disgusted by his actions and his bragging.

“He later bragged about killing his pets to fellow firefighters, and he showed no remorse, even joking about it,” Assistant County Prosecutor Heather Robinson said. “Fellow firefighters were disgusted by what he did, and the Capital Area Humane Society was called to investigate.”

His lawyer calls his actions an isolated case and out of character but it seems Santuomo showed his character quite clearly when he gave courtroom reporters the finger.

And this waste of human life is still working as a firefighter!! Is this someone you would want to trust your life, or the lives of your precious furry family members to in the case of an emergency?? After pleading guilty he should have been removed from his position immediately! Fired!! And I’d also like to know what this business is of him being allowed to serve his measly 90 day sentence over a period of 2 years?? What makes him so special?

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I do think the POS should face exactly the same punishment that Vick got, and he should be fired, and he should have no further contact with dogs. After serving time he should be able to get a job, just like Vick, but have no further contact with dogs. That the state of Ohio doesn't have felony charges as an option, and he can't be found guilty of a felony, he should face the maximum sentence there is for this crime in this state. Same way I feel about Vick I feel about this asswipe, useless to me, perhaps in the future he can regain employment as Vick has. There is NO Distinction in my mind between the two of them, race isn't the issue FOR ME. The crime IS. I am not pleased that society is fucked up, but it is. Same crime, equal punnishment.
You could ask me to forgive, but with out knowing them I could not, for I don't know if they were telling me the truth. I can live and let live, and I think that is the difference.

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

You bring up a salient point here, Corkey--you'll notice that nothing I have said in the last three days of talking about this can be read as me forgiving Vick or proclaiming him my new best friend and boon companion through thick-and-thin. I don't know Mr. Vick and the odds-on chances are that I will never meet him since he lives in an orbit that, quite honestly, I don't aspire to. Blessedly, it is not up to me to forgive him.

I'm a sucker for redemption stories. Maybe because of my own manifest flaws and the ways in which I have lived below my potential or made just mind-numblingly stupid choices. I want to believe that Michael Vick truly feels remorse. Because even though some people--perhaps with good reason--believe that he doesn't feel remorse or doubt it, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I want to because it would be a better world by a small increment if he felt remorse and was truly determined to go down a different road. I want to because I want to believe my own self-redemption--from something I will not bore you with the details with--was genuine. I hope it was. Everyday I wake up and strive to be a little better than I was yesterday--a little more the woman I dreamt of being, the woman my son saw when he was only six months old, the woman my wife fell in love with, the person I sold myself to my employer as being, etc. I don't believe in any kind of divine beings or afterlife, as far as I can tell, this is It. You have one take at life, there are no rehearsals, and the director said "Action!" the moment you took your first breath we have a limited amount of time in which to figure out how we are going to live. The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

That might be pure sentiment on my part. It probably is. I still want to believe that he understands that what he did was wrong, that he only wants to make things right and I hope that his example inspires others to turn away from cruelty. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I know I would mean it and for all the right reasons. I want to believe that he would to.

Cheers
Aj

Yasher Koach or continuing strength to you! Thank you for sharing this. What I find resonates the most with me is that you have found a way to forgive yourself. I have found this very difficult to do and it is the key to being able to forgive others or if not in the position to forgive, to at least believe in the potential for redemption.

[dreadgeek]

Saw this at HuffPo and thought it makes a very, very good point.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dave-z..._b_802821.html

Pundits, man your stations. It seems that the Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson yipped that Eagles quarterback Michael Vick should have been executed three years ago when convicted on dog-fighting charges.

Many are now getting hot and bothered expressing shock that Carlson would actually call for Vick's execution -- a tad extreme even for Fox.

Frankly I was shocked that Carlson, humiliated so thoroughly by Jon Stewart many years ago, still is on the air. The guy has been on more canceled programs than Jennifer Love Hewitt.

In full, the paunchy, lipless, chinless, porcelain man-boy with the ubiquitous bow-tie said, "I'm a Christian, I've made mistakes myself, I believe fervently in second chances. But Michael Vick killed dogs, and he did in a heartless and cruel way. And I think, personally, he should've been executed for that."

I know it's hardly news for a Murdoch-owned, right-wing shock jock to say something shocking. It's like receiving word of a celebrity sex tape. The thrill is gone. I am also well aware that in the current media set up, it's Carlson's job to say something utterly outrageous and the job of people like myself to respond. We make statements about Carlson's peculiar brand of bloodthirsty Christianity. Maybe we point out how easy it is for Carlson to call for the death of an African-American athlete, always the low-hanging fruit for his race-baiting ilk.

We bat this particular ball back and forth like -- as one writer once said to me -- "two hookers working opposite sides of the street." The ensuing hothouse debate becomes an entertainment option for people soured on American Idol.

But there is actually a serious problem with this kind of 24-hour cable performance art when the subject is Michael Vick. It's that pesky entity pecking at the window of reality television known as "reality."

Dostoevsky said famously,"The degree of civilization in a society can be judged by entering its prisons." By that standard, the United States exists in a barbaric state. Enter a prison -- something I sincerely doubt Carlson has ever done -- and you see the daily, dreary reality for the 2.3 million people who live behind bars. In what's become the largest prison system on earth -- take that China! -- you see the herded poor stacked on top of one another. You see a world disproportionately black and brown with African-American men six times as likely to go to prison as whites, with one in nine black men between 20-34 living in a state of incarceration.

It's a country that through its addiction to privatized prisons and "tough on crime" legislation, has created what writer Michelle Alexander's calls "The New Jim Crow." In Alexander's book, The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness she details the way the prison system robs its present and past and even future inhabitants of voting rights, citizenship, and any semblance of political power. She points that the United States now imprisons a higher percentage of black men than South Africa at the height of apartheid. As she writes:

Jarvious Cotton's great-great-grandfather could not vote as a slave. His great-grandfather was beaten to death by the Klu Klux Klan for attempting to vote. His grandfather was prevented from voting by Klan intimidation; his father was barred by poll taxes and literacy tests. Today, Cotton cannot vote because he, like many black men in the United States, has been labeled a felon and is currently on parole.

Michael Vick, whether he likes it or not, is humanizing the struggle to find redemption after serving time in a maximum security prison. After all, if a star quarterback doing hours of community surface can't regain a foothold in society, who could? Tucker Carlson's efforts to dehumanize Vick and paint him as a disposable, killable individual cuts in a way that transcends the idiocy of Murdoch's 50-state southern strategy of dimples and dog whistles. I'd love for Carlson to spend even a week in Leavenworth and then make an effort to rebuild his nerfy little life. Then we'd see how a man without callouses could be so callous. This is why Michael Vick's story matters, and really another example -- as if more were needed -- of how Fox News has become a cancerous boil on the political soul of this country.

[suebee]

Aj was kind enough to send me a link to the American Humane Society in regards to the work that Michael Vick has done with them. The part that was most pertenant to what I've been talking about was the following:

Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?
Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.

The article that has influenced my opinion of Vick the most was in fact reported widely in the media, and stemmed from a Dec 12/10 interview with him, which can be found here.

From this second article, these words most affected me:

The convicted dog-fighting ring operator, who spent 18 months in prison after being convicted in 2007, says he genuinely cares about animals and would love to have a dog as a household pet...again.

"I think it would be a big step for me in the rehabilitation process," he told TheGrio.com, a website that focuses on African-American issues. "I think just to have a pet in my household and to show people that I genuinely care, and my love, and my passion for animals."Unfortunately for the born-again animal lover, a federal judge overseeing Vick's case barred him from owning a dog during his three years of supervised release after prison, which does not end until 2012.

His latest comments to TheGrio.com have generated outrage, as well as support.

Many people believe that Vick, who has returned to the top of his profession, has redeemed himself and should be allowed to adopt or own a pet if he so chooses. On the other end of the spectrum are those who feel Vick should be banned from owning dogs for eternity.

Vick asserts that he is not a crazy person or a psychopath and that his criminal behavior was merely a product of his upbringing.

"What happened in my past and what I did in the culture I grew up in doesn't shape and mold me as the person I am now," he said. Vick continued, "I said it before that I wish I can own a dog and I'll continue to say it. I'm not allowed to, but I'm just saying I wish I could because my kids ask me every day. It's more so for them than for me."

Now I'm not going to say that I am capable of knowing what a man has in his heart simply by reading his words, but while he apparently DID acknowledge that his actions were wrong to the Humane Society officials, I suspect that he was asked specific questions. He'd have to be pretty damned stupid to say that he had no remorse for his actions. I don't know, maybe he changed his way of thinking and truly found a conscience. This is just where I'm a Doubting Susie.

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

These are only words in print. I don't know under what circumstances they were made, nor do I know what was left out of the interview. Maybe Vick has changed, but I guess I'll still have doubts until I see him say something that addresses what *I* think any abuser has to change within themself before they can really say they've changed: and that's their attitude and their belief system.

I hope he's changed. Not only were those innocent animals his victims, but he's let his family down horribly. But you'll all excuse me if I have lingering doubts. This isn't shoplifting we're talking about. It's multiple and systematic acts of horrible cruelty. The best I can do is to keep an open mind. Nothing says I have to like the guy, but on the other hand NOTHING I can do or say or think or feel is going to impact Michael Vick's life. I just hope he can use the rest of his life to positively affect others.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The consequences we wreak on other's lives are very, very real. None of the things I've done that were stupid in galactic proportions were done out of malice or a desire to do evil. Most were done out of selfishness and within a reasonable amount of time, I realized how horribly I'd fucked up. Then I only wanted to make things better. Absent other evidence, I feel bound to give Mr. Vick the benefit of the doubt because I've been a complete fuck-up at times in my life.

Yes, this exactly. I believe in redemption and second chances. I have screwed up more than I care to share...and my own life would look very different if there were no opportunities to redeem myself, to learn, to grow and to do better the next time around.

I found it interesting that Vick is working with the Humane Society to change the thinking about dog fighting...not with animal advocates, but with those that are participating or at risk of it. He's doing it voluntarily...not because he was ordered to. He's not being paid...in fact he's paying his own expenses as he does this.

Could he be doing this for PR? Sure. Could he have an ulterior motive? Sure.

But could he also be doing this because somewhere in the middle of that prison sentence he had an epiphany, or grew, and realized that he wanted to make up for what he'd done and keep others from going down the same path? Sure.

I don't know which it is. I can't know. But I have to give him the opportunity to redeem himself without judgment.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by suebee

In the second article - an interview, his reasons for owning another dog were to "show people that I genuinely care, and my love and passion for animals." and "because my kids ask me every day". (if they can have a dog). What I find missing from this is any reference to what a dog could bring to his family, or how he sees pet ownership differently than he used to.

I just want to say that this could just as easily be an artifact of editing rather than an artifact of either sentiment or writing. I'm not saying that is the case, simply saying that the parts of the interview that might be most germane here are not necessarily the parts that the editor thought would be most germane for the audience of the web site.

Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

You all have touched on the same point re the Ohio case. This is a quote from the article from The Nation that someone linked to.

Carlson did not call for the execution of BP executives despite their culpability in the devastation of Gulf wildlife. He did not denounce the Supreme Court for their decision in US v. Stevens (April 2010) which overturned a portion of the 1999 Act Punishing Depictions of Animal Cruelty. After all with this "crush" decision the Court seems to have validated a marketplace for exactly the kinds of crimes Vick was convicted of committing. For many observers, the decision to demonize Vick seems motivated by something more pernicious than concern for animal welfare. It seems to be about race.

[blush]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Why don't people put their passion and energy into all the women and children that white men abuse? Why not focus on the white male power system that makes people of color, women, children, animals and the environment instruments of their control? That's where the locus of the mis-use and abuse of power is.

If ALL people (not just white men) were treated with respect, dignity and as equals maybe collectively we would treat our animals better too. How can you expect animals to be treated well in such a fucked up world with such fucked up value systems? Get to the root of the problems. People abuse animals because they think they have the right to.

I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Waldo

Hey Toughy, don't you think it's a little um, uncomfortable, that you use the phrase "drop kick dog" in a thread about animal abuse??

Hey Waldo....

um.....no I don't find it uncomfortable.....I do have a sense of humor and I believe I inserted "laughin" in that thought to indicate the tone of the comment.

----------------
suebee (and others)............truly I get the idea that nothing will change your mind about Vick. I don't think you (and several other folks) actually 'grok' the inner city/rural culture that breeds dog fighting and/or cock fighting. Do you really think he should take a camera crew with him when goes to the 'hood to have those one on one conversations with those who still do this? If he did that, would you then say he is not sincere cuz he is just doing it for the publicity?

Would y'all be as outraged if he had been involved in cock fighting and not dog fighting............I'd bet the odds are greatly in favor of a resounding no...............

happy new year.......

(besides I need go and call my UConn friends and rub it in that Stanford destroyed the winning streak and spanked them the whole game......GO STANFORD!!!!)

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by blush

I don't disagree with you, but to be fair, this thread is mostly about the repercussions of Michael Vick's phone call from Obama. It isn't shocking to me that posters are focusing more on that aspect. Awareness and discussions about any type of abuse doesn't detract from or "waste space" about other types of abuse. It's not like we have an empathy threshold.

I'd love to see a thread about the intersection of football and domestic violence.

I'm very well aware that people can care about the abuse of animals and the abuse of women. I am one of them. Like I have already said people have brought up Vick time and time again- here and in the media. When do they ever talk about the systemic violence against women perpetuated by football players?

The Ben Roethlisberger incident just happened this year, yet most don't even seem to be familiar with it. He's one of the most famous figures in all of sports. He's also a white quarterback. Michael Vick is a black quarterback. They both play for sports teams in the State of Pennsylvania. Why is one getting so much air time and the other one doesn't? Because of Obama's phone call? Really I don't think so.

I don't know why I am supposed to take this to another thread. The over obsession of Vick has lots of racist tones to it which are being discussed here- quite appropriately. There's other big aspects to this story as well. Why are people so obsessed with one player who has been convicted and served his time?

[katsarecool]

I am from Georgia and the press gave this story lots of coverage. After charges were dropped by the victim the story died. So he was not tried and convicted big difference.