"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[LieslKate]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

If you give me week or so, I'm sure I can write an AppleScript so that you can use it as a remote control for your favorite vibrator. LOL

Cheers
Aj

http://www.ohmibod.com/

*SMIRKS*

[Bad_boi]

Butch and femme are just terms. They only limit you if you let them. You can do what you wanna do and like what you like. Butches can do girl stuff. Femmes can do guy stuff.

[Medusa]

Im going to put a placeholder here for myself to come back and talk about how "Butch" and "Femme" spaces are morphing with respect to "Genderqueer".

Have to write about that one when I get home tonight.

[AtLast]

My experience as of late with more lesbian groupings has been positive in terms of my being a butch. Nothing like what I remember in the 1970's when a butch or femme was given a lot of flack from political lesbians. Interesting, as I do have a lesbian couple living across the street from me that trips when seeing me in a tux or suit. But, they are the exceptions. I actually feel more marginialized within the B-F community much of the time.

Something that has occured to me is that I am simply comfortable with myself and butch presentation. I engage with people no matter what group is present. Sure, I see a few of those glances at times, but, I look past these and talk with people and leave the chips behind. What I find is that a look is just that, a look and when someone finds that I am just like every one else in terms of communication, interersts, goals, experiences, etc., we don't have to remain stuck in labels, but relate as human beings.

Yes, we have gone through a lot of crap through the years, however, I am not going to assume or pre-judge what someone else that does not know me might do or say. I just don't navigate the world based upon a defensive stance. If something comes up, I'll deal with it then.

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Im going to put a placeholder here for myself to come back and talk about how "Butch" and "Femme" spaces are morphing with respect to "Genderqueer".

Have to write about that one when I get home tonight.

Oy my dear, do NOT get me started on this discussion. no.really.do.not.
lol.

GenderQueer appears to be a 'catch-all' term that some co-op for themselves (like I did for a short while) but it *feels* like it's becoming a default... haven't quite put my finger on my issue around this term but here's where it gets a little complicated for me.

to nutshell it: I suspect gender queer doesn't properly/fully/or at all defines a female identified butch lesbian any more than it properly/fully/or at all defines a transguy.

What has me a little bitter around that is, it's been a challenge in finding real time community that 'fits'.

it will be interesting to see how the discussion does unfold.

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

....

Something that has occured to me is that I am simply comfortable with myself and butch presentation. I engage with people no matter what group is present. Sure, I see a few of those glances at times, but, I look past these and talk with people and leave the chips behind. What I find is that a look is just that, a look and when someone finds that I am just like every one else in terms of communication, interersts, goals, experiences, etc., we don't have to remain stuck in labels, but relate as human beings.

Yes, we have gone through a lot of crap through the years, however, I am not going to assume or pre-judge what someone else that does not know me might do or say. I just don't navigate the world based upon a defensive stance. If something comes up, I'll deal with it then.

i agree with you AtLast. i find that when i give people the opportunity to see that our interactions are as 'normal' as theirs, they tend to be more open and less on edge. Yes, there are some who give 'the look' and/or make comments, but usually i tend to just let them slide on past with a smile...unless it's one of those moments. This goes for as many gay women as straights, btw. Gay men around here seem to be the only group who are, generally, non-judgmental about b-f dynamics.

i have found that for me, here, people usually tend to not get so defensive and ready to judge without thinking when they are given the opportunity to realize that the relationships i have with the butches in my life are as normal and natural as their relationships with their friends & lovers.

i mean, if i go into a social situation with my defenses up, ready to counter-attack, what can i expect, really?? (i love that smilie!)

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Oy my dear, do NOT get me started on this discussion. no.really.do.not.
lol.

GenderQueer appears to be a 'catch-all' term that some co-op for themselves (like I did for a short while) but it *feels* like it's becoming a default... haven't quite put my finger on my issue around this term but here's where it gets a little complicated for me.

to nutshell it: I suspect gender queer doesn't properly/fully/or at all defines a female identified butch lesbian any more than it properly/fully/or at all defines a transguy.

What has me a little bitter around that is, it's been a challenge in finding real time community that 'fits'.

it will be interesting to see how the discussion does unfold.

This is pretty much what I have been trying to tease out in my own thoughts.

The term "genderqueer" doesnt fit me as a "Femme" because I view "Femme" as my gender. And while I am certainly "Queer" in the way that I identify it and define it, "Genderqueer" feels kinda "othering" as a blanket term as applied to me.

I can see how this might feel much the same to a Transperson

[Rook]

For a rather long time, I did identify as Aggressive, I didn't know any better description for how I felt.
One bless'd evening my girl gave me a Book after a really rough day facing off some bullies, and I swear..I thought I heard a choir somewhere [-crax up-]
the Book was "Stone Butch Blues"
At the time I was 16, full of piss n vinegar{still am, sometimes}...
I happily embraced 'stone butch', and I have had a lot of those looks, Myself.
Granted, I did meet their glance with challenge back then, got into huge messes with a few "Campus feminist dykes", an ex of my best friend was the Bane of my fucking existence while I crashed on her couch..
I often stopped the argument with "the only reason I'm walking away is because I respect my friends house..just remember this lil phrase divide and conquer"
I don't think it's antiquated to refer yourself as Femme or Butch, our community has a Long history in the 'struggle', to deny ourselves those precious I.D.'s is to deny all those who went against the grain when it was so easy to prosecute/persecute and stuff in a Mental Ward{with ECT as added bonus}.
Nowadays I do use other I.D.'s in addition, but mostly only to give a clear Idea where I stand within some sub-cultures/groups.
Otherwise?
I'm Me, take it or leave it, draw your own conclusions as time goes by.
My boi told me something the other night that I agree with fully, the Rainbow doesn't begin to cover everything we identify with.
I seldom wave a Pride flag in my town because far too often, they'll just assume I'm a pot-smokin Deadhead.
{nothing wrong with it, I just...rarely smoke, and if I know 2 songs from Cherry Garcia, I'm lucky}

So, yeah, I wear my Butch "button" proudly, stares, glares, pre-judged glances be damned. And I'm 33, so..ageism can go down the drain too...

[Lady Pamela]

All I can say is if it is anique...The younger generations where I live are walking in our footsteps...lol

My grandaughter is very old school butch, Her girl very femme and they both love it dearly..As do all the younger generation I have the honor of working with...smiles

Just saying.

[AtLast]

Thinking about it being a good thing for each generation to adapt whatever definitions/terms/identifiers for itself. I do see butch-femme used throughout all, however, yet each generation has put its own signatures on these terms. Makes me think they are elastic... and can fit with these adjustments and adaptations.

As I have said before, when attending the Butch Voices Conference, I talked with a lot of younger butches and femmes that do not use either or even much of the trans language we have. Frankly, this feels like a means to get away from the traditional gender binary in societies that have been ruled by them and languages such as English that just don't have the linguistic breadth concerning gender terms. Many native cultures (and Asian) seem to do a better job around this.

If I am an antique, its OK. And new terms are good, too!

I agree that genderqueer has become a default. I see this as useful and a means to promote coalitions. But, this is only my opinion. I guess I am more interested in the dynamics of human interaction and relationships rather than terminology. This cannot happen simply from a term or label, it takes communication skills and a desire to form connections and grow.

[BullDog]

Genderqueer is not a term that resonates with me at all. I find queer useful as an inclusive umbrella term.

[Pretty Woman]

Just moved over from the 'other' site and looking for a thread or two where I feel like I have something relevant to contribute. I suppose that living in NYC for almost 2 decades and being embraced by the Lesbian Herstory Archives almost immediately upon my arrival, I have naively assumed that butch and femme are still everywhere and that the folks who identify as either are embraced by the rest of their own communities whatever those may be.
Honestly, it's only since I've begun to participate in an online butch-femme community that I've experienced difficulty from my POV.
I am a lesbian femme. And what I have experienced is almost an exclusion of 'us' from the femme moniker online. It has been confusing and I have had alot of anger at those who seemingly work very hard to erase the lesbian from femme (or butch). It feels homophobic to me. Not sure if others have had that experience but the antiquation from my perspective has been to the 'lesbian' part of my femme as opposed to the femme itself.

[cinderella]

I revel in the butch-femme dicotomy. But then I am 67 years old,so who knows what the next or oncoming generation will want to dictate. It matters little to me...but then I'm old school, that known, which I am sure the 'new generation is trying so desperataely to dissolve. OK, good luck to them that is what the masses want.But I'll be damned if that's what the Lesbian world wants - there will always be Lesbians that don't fit the butch-femme mold.

[Corkey]

I'm gonna say it again, some of us aren't lesbians. Yet those who are look down from their high horses and scoff at we who aren't, and pronounce that we shouldn't be among you who are. What ever happened to diversity? What ever happened to letting folks be who they are? Boxes and labels aren't who Humans are.
My.02

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm gonna say it again, some of us aren't lesbians. Yet those who are look down from their high horses and scoff at we who aren't, and pronounce that we shouldn't be among you who are. What ever happened to diversity? What ever happened to letting folks be who they are? Boxes and labels aren't who Humans are.
My.02

On the other site, for a long time, it was the other way around. VERY few people seemed to be willing to admit to identifying as lesbians, AND MANY MANY people felt totally free to make fun of lesbians. IMO, that was tolerated by the admins. It took a few people making quite a lot of noise to get some attention paid to that issue. i am HAPPY to see people freely ID as lesbian here. It was not always that way on the old site.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

Just moved over from the 'other' site and looking for a thread or two where I feel like I have something relevant to contribute. I suppose that living in NYC for almost 2 decades and being embraced by the Lesbian Herstory Archives almost immediately upon my arrival, I have naively assumed that butch and femme are still everywhere and that the folks who identify as either are embraced by the rest of their own communities whatever those may be.
Honestly, it's only since I've begun to participate in an online butch-femme community that I've experienced difficulty from my POV.
I am a lesbian femme. And what I have experienced is almost an exclusion of 'us' from the femme moniker online. It has been confusing and I have had alot of anger at those who seemingly work very hard to erase the lesbian from femme (or butch). It feels homophobic to me. Not sure if others have had that experience but the antiquation from my perspective has been to the 'lesbian' part of my femme as opposed to the femme itself.

Welcome to the forum!

I think you'll find there's plenty of femmes and butches alike who do identify as lesbian on the BF Planet (as well as those who don't).

The important thing is feel free to be who you are without apology, everybody's welcome here.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Martina

On the other site, for a long time, it was the other way around. VERY few people seemed to be willing to admit to identifying as lesbians, AND MANY MANY people felt totally free to make fun of lesbians.

Well this Butch has never made "fun" of anyones ID. Be who you are, and allow others the same respect.

[Massive]

I've found this thread very enlightening, I can't say I've read it from the very start, because the last time I did that I was sat at my desk for about 6 hours.
I call myself GenderQueer, but if someone asks me if I'm Butch, I say yes, I am, because for me I am a GenderQueer Butch Dyke, and I wear my own personal labels with Pride (you can also add to those Syr and Daddy!)
The reason I call myself GenderQueer is because where I live, in the north-eastern part of England, the terms Butch and Femme are considered outdated, to the point where I haven't got a damn clue what the 'kids' today call themselves.
All my life I've been Butch, I can't be any other way, everything I do, wear, say does happen to scream it out loud, unless of course it's some little old lady who looks at me and says "You're such a nice lad." then I mostly nod and grin.
Another reason why I call myself GenderQueer is because here in the UK, it is an uncommon term where I am, it makes people, both straight, gay, purple, alien or otherwise stop and think, there are so many people out in the world who judge us for how we look, who we date, what colour our skin is, the clothes we wear, what tv shows we watch, so I personally ID the way I do because it makes these people who can't see past my pink mohawk or the fact that I'm 6' tall in boots and look like a man from behind cos I've got broad shoulders actually stop and think about the fact that there are so many different and incredibly diverse ways to live in this day and age.
I still talk to gay men on my local scene who remember getting arrested and beaten up by the police for being gay, these self-same men ask me to clarify when they call me a lesbian and I correct them, for me personally 'lesbian' has far too many negative connotations, and again, I'll reiterate, that is MY personal dislike of the term, I will defend, to the hilt anyone elses choice to ID as whoever and however they choose, and always will, because we need that diversity in this community. If for nothing else than the simple fact that without this community, how many of us would have to hide away under some other label or group that we knew we did not belong to?I've watched this kind of thing happen again and again over the past 14 years of my life being out and proud, so many kids don't know how to ID, or have no knowledge of the way we have all ID'd in the past, I was one of those kids when I first came out, and it took me seeing some amazing, strong, good people, both Butch and Femme, to see the Butch in myself, I owe those people a favour, so I try and educate the 'kids' I know today, I see it as a part of the responsibility laid down on my shoulders by the generations who have been here before me.
As a side note and an example of what it's been like for me on the gay scene here in the north-east, I was out with friends, walking down between bars and this girl walked up and asked me if I was new on the scene, so I explained, politely, that I had been out and around since before she left school more than likely, then she asked me why I was 'old fashioned' and dressed the way I did (I had a shirt, t-shirt underneath, jeans and big boots) so I explained, yet again that I was and always had been Butch, to which she answered, "Oh right, well, you know, maybe you're too butch?!" To this day I can't look this girl in the eye now, if that's how people see me, then I think I have finally reached the stage where I think, you know, maybe it doesn't matter how I ID, as long as I know who I am, and my babygirl knows who I am, and I have my friends respect, then who gives a damn? I know who I am, surely that's enough? If someone who doesn't know me, and doesn't care to get to know me has the gall to try and tell me I'm wrong? I think you'll find my response the same as it's ever been ... I am me, don't like it, well, tough shit!

[Lynn]

There is nothing antiquated about the terms or the idea of "butch/femme" to me. I am also a lesbian, which is something about myself that I hold very dear. I don't consider that my own identity negates that of anyone else. I'm a woman who loves women, and butch women add a dimension to my life that I never knew before. My partner ID's as butch, but it isn't the label that attracts me, it's the qualities that she possesses. Being comfortable with herself, in her own skin is what I'm talking about. It may not be about the label, per se, but it is about the qualities.

I have to admit that in daily life, my world is somewhat narrow. Except for the few times I've met people from these sites, I don't have a real time butch-femme community. I don't know how the notion of butch-femme is received, or if it means the same to me as it does to others.

[Kobi]

I am an antique? Maybe I will go on the Road Show program and have myself appraised. What would I go for at auction? I wonder what description the appraiser would give to describe my value or lack thereof?

Nostalgia is making a comeback, as usual. Maybe I can book myself at one of the country fairs, or antique car shows or stuff. Just think, and now, its the antique lesbian show!!!!

I dont see the male community expanding their definitions by leaps and bounds. Maybe its a woman thing, maybe we have internalized too much of the curse of a marketing strategy.

Seeing I have no clue and no desire to learn what most of the new terms mean, I just flirt indiscriminately. It's easier.