Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

That's really more where I am coming from. I admire beauty and confidence in other women. I'm kind of oblivious to the idea of competition, and I never would consider myself a threat to anyone. And, after being around these sites and "communities" for a few years, I realize that this is rather naive.

I do think that every group has an established hierarchy, whether or not we're all aware of it. When I was in college, I really liked one of my classmates, and I tried to reach out to be her friend. She was pretty rude to me so I finally just asked her, "You and I have so much in common, and I really like you. Why do you keep pushing me away?" She told me that it was because I was a threat to her and to her position in our program. She told me that I, like her, was smart, pretty, and I asked good questions. And, that was too much for her. I was flabbergasted. Just floored.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

I'm not trying to throw Walt under the bus. Of course, the Cinderella story is a Grimm Fairy Tale from wayway back in the day. I think it is so rampant in our culture that we have to fight NOT to fall back into that "one girl" mentality.

I agree with you, I've fought the conditioning too. Usually what I find beautiful in a person has little bearing on their clothes.

As an aside, kids are best, imo, at seeing people for who they "really" are.

[Medusa]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

[blush]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

And here's an even better question:

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

[SuperFemme]

I have a problem with compliments. If somebody tells me I am pretty, I do NOT believe them and am immediately suspect. I was a total outcast in school and started high school at the age of 12. When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment?

[cara]

I think the things that hurt the most are the things you hear behind your back. 'Dusa, if I had known that sort of email was circulating after the get-together in KC, I would have said something. Honestly, I think that situation is more telling of the people writing and sending the email than anything. And I hear you about both the amazing and painful aspects of that event.

Also, I think the horrible, ugly comments stay with us the longest because we have a nature to dwell on the negative. Well, I shouldn't speak for all femmes. I should say *I* have a tendency to dwell on the negative. As I get older and more comfortable in my own skin, I'm finding it easier to let it roll off my shoulders, though. I'm also finding it easier to leave the rubbish where I found it. You don't like me because I'm fat, shy, and quirky? Good! One more narrow-minded person out of my life.

:heart:

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment?

You are an amazing person and I am giving you a

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based.

I think I have this. Except for me, EVERYONE else at the party is smarter and funnier and prettier than me. I'm everyone's stepsister.

Or was. One of the things I'm working on. Goofy can tell y'all all stories about me but one in particular is the time he was too ill to go to a party at Pup's and I broke down into hysterical tears because I was terrified to go by myself.

Terrified. Nearly threw up on the way there.

But I went. And it was fine. But y'all will never know the horrific anxiety attack I had.

What makes it funny is that it wasn't even my first time there. I'd been to Pup's several times. But never without my security blanket. Not sure Goof enjoyed being told he was a security blanket, but that's how I rolled.

Really working on not doing that anymore. Proudly I can say I've been to several functions where I didn't go with anyone and I survived. I still get panicky. I still try to figure out reasons not to go, but I am determined to make myself go.

Originally Posted by Medusa

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating

I have so much admiration for you. Reading your story fits into my own angst so much except I never actually did the hard work to lose any weight.

Originally Posted by Medusa

It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I have to check my mirror. I think I may have a red-headed twin. Self-sabotage. I do this. I try not to, but I still do this sometimes.

It sucks to live life expecting to be talked about. It sucks worse to have it come to fruition.

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I keep thinking about starting a thread called Mirrors. In it, you could only look in the mirror for someone else and post what you saw about them that was positive.

Wow. I just wrote five sentences of negativity and deleted each one. Apparently, my joy meter is low today.

ANYWHO! It would be a positive thread and you couldn't deny what was said about you. Only say thanks and accept it.

We all need lessons in learning how to believe in the hype others tell us about ourselves.

Originally Posted by Medusa

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

HUGS. It's acceptance for me. It's validation as well, but more acceptance. I want to be a part of the bonding but I can't stand the backstabbing. I saw it so much in high school and then when I was in a sorority (fraternity actually but it was all women.) I have done so much of it myself. I can't accept that in my life any more.

I'm fortunate here in Austin. That sort of thing seems to be very limited. We have good people here.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment?

I just want to give you a compliment now because this made me CRY to read. So I'll make it a stinging one.

You are a bobble-headed woman who weebles when you are tired and you wear a wooden spoon around your neck and I love you. How's that?

Originally Posted by cara

I think the things that hurt the most are the things you hear behind your back.
SNIP
You don't like me because I'm fat, shy, and quirky? Good! One more narrow-minded person out of my life.

:heart:

Cara, you are my new femme heroine. This last line was positively positive and I adored it. Can you be my fat, shy, quirky femme crush?

[cara]

Haha! I *still* can't figure out that quote thingy, but sure, Arwen. I'll be your fat, shy, and quirky femme crush!

*hugs*

[cara]

P.S. I like the Mirror thread idea!!!

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by cara

Haha! I *still* can't figure out that quote thingy, but sure, Arwen. I'll be your fat, shy, and quirky femme crush!

*hugs*

Cara, my love, drink to me only with thine eyes.


Then look down to the right of this post. See the four buttons? Quote will quote this. The plus sign will mark this as one you want to quote. Then you can + as many as you like. Then you hit Quote on the last one and voila (or walla, lol) you have multiple posts to edit and quote around. Helpful?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I think negative shit has super glue on it or something. Seriously. Maybe in this day and age when ALL the kids on the team get a ribbon or trophy, so no one is superior....in order to combat negative feelings....maybe it's helping to allow the negative to stick around longer. No one's special.

In reference to Medusa's "Flippant" thread, the term special has been used by, for and around me all my life, so maybe my view with it is all screwed up.

*shrug*

I don't know. I had a train. It had thoughts, but I'll be damned if I know where it went.

Originally Posted by Medusa

And here's an even better question:

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

Males are nothing to me, so their comments may sting temporarily, but they won't stick. Women....my peers....now those are some nasty wounds waiting to happen. People smell fear...insecurity...and latch onto it and ride it into the ground. Some people want to allay others' pain and insecurity and others want to exploit it to try to make themselves appear and/or feel better.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I have a problem with compliments. If somebody tells me I am pretty, I do NOT believe them and am immediately suspect. I was a total outcast in school and started high school at the age of 12. When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment?

It has taken Ryan months to get me to acknowledge that he may indeed think I am pretty, but I always have to follow it up with "but you are biased", which is not fair to him. I'm invalidating his feelings to feed my own insecurities. It's not fair or nice, but he's working with me to help me see myself as he does. Honestly, I'm scared to "be" pretty or smart or talented. Like someone could come along and take it from me if I don't deny or hide it.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think I have this. Except for me, EVERYONE else at the party is smarter and funnier and prettier than me. I'm everyone's stepsister.

Or was. One of the things I'm working on. Goofy can tell y'all all stories about me but one in particular is the time he was too ill to go to a party at Pup's and I broke down into hysterical tears because I was terrified to go by myself.

Terrified. Nearly threw up on the way there.

But I went. And it was fine. But y'all will never know the horrific anxiety attack I had.

What makes it funny is that it wasn't even my first time there. I'd been to Pup's several times. But never without my security blanket. Not sure Goof enjoyed being told he was a security blanket, but that's how I rolled.

Really working on not doing that anymore. Proudly I can say I've been to several functions where I didn't go with anyone and I survived. I still get panicky. I still try to figure out reasons not to go, but I am determined to make myself go.


I am SO PROUD of you for this, Arwen!

I keep thinking about starting a thread called Mirrors. In it, you could only look in the mirror for someone else and post what you saw about them that was positive.

Wow. I just wrote five sentences of negativity and deleted each one. Apparently, my joy meter is low today.

ANYWHO! It would be a positive thread and you couldn't deny what was said about you. Only say thanks and accept it.

We all need lessons in learning how to believe in the hype others tell us about ourselves.


DO IT! I have to log off soon, but if I come back tomorrow and don't find one set up exactly as you have described here, I'm starting it.

Do it. Please.


HUGS. It's acceptance for me. It's validation as well, but more acceptance. I want to be a part of the bonding but I can't stand the backstabbing. I saw it so much in high school and then when I was in a sorority (fraternity actually but it was all women.) I have done so much of it myself. I can't accept that in my life any more.

I'm fortunate here in Austin. That sort of thing seems to be very limited. We have good people here.


Austin is fortunate to have YOU.

I just want to give you a compliment now because this made me CRY to read. So I'll make it a stinging one.

You are a bobble-headed woman who weebles when you are tired and you wear a wooden spoon around your neck and I love you. How's that?

Who wouldn't believe that? That made me tear up a bit.

[cara]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Cara, my love, drink to me only with thine eyes.

Then look down to the right of this post. See the four buttons? Quote will quote this. The plus sign will mark this as one you want to quote. Then you can + as many as you like. Then you hit Quote on the last one and voila (or walla, lol) you have multiple posts to edit and quote around. Helpful?

I am drunketh!

Thanks for explaining.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by apretty

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

Hmmm ... no. Can't say that would be the case.

My friend used high maintenance to describe herself. This was about the very first time I have ever heard that being used. (Which is why when I hear that, I automatically think of her).

Will come back to this when I have more time (and am more awake).

[cara]

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by cara

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though.

I laughed and visualized Hello Kitty stumbling through the Arwen's living room.

Chuckles.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I think for me it is because the bad stuff reinforces my core beliefs about myself. My therapist calls it selective filtering and it is a cognitive error. I am constantly gathering evidence that I am bad. Those things that do not fit the core belief I have are discarded. This is a very hard habit to break. I work at it every day. Some days I do very well and other days it is like I have not learned a thing over the past 4 years of therapy.

[Bit]

I missed this convo...

Originally Posted by Kim

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

Everything I've seen tells me that what most straight women obsess over is whether or not they're fat.

When you really think about it, I think it might be the same thing, because after all, what does our culture tell us is the reason for an otherwise straight woman to diet? It's to be sexy--and that means it's to please the sexual partners.

Is there any way to separate out sexual desirability from femininity? Only by talking about it, working it through, bringing the hidden messages to the forefront (like we're doing here)... and I personally don't see most straight women doing this, because yanno... they don't talk about being feminine, they talk about being fat.

Originally Posted by Arwen

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

Is it even possible to have a male-centric culture without being female-phobic on some level?

Originally Posted by blush

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

When something pervades a culture as completely as looks-ism pervades Western society, it can seem like human nature. I think, though, that it's just so pervasive in the larger culture that it continually washes into our b-f culture. It's going to take a LOT of us doing the consciousness-raising analysis of the sources of societal oppression, over a long period of time, to eradicate it.

The good news is twofold: one, we ARE doing that analysis, and two, we've made a lot of progress in the past several years.

Originally Posted by blush

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

Originally Posted by Gemme

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

I missed this convo...


Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

snip

Bit there is a lot of good stuff to talk about here. I am fresh out of the straight world and I have to agree that I have never heard a straight woman obsess about whether or not she is feminine enough. The standard mom look is not feminine at all. I have spent more time obsessing about being feminine since I came out than I ever did before! I did not imagine that would be that case.

Is the high femme really the pinnacle of femininity for the larger culture? I am not sure if I agree with that. I think femininity is not what the focus of the larger culture is. It seems more like a sexual image is the pinnacle. I don't associate that image with femme or high femme. I guess I don't see it is a highly sexualized image. Femme and high femme are more of a package than an outward sexy image. Am I not seeing things right here? I have a very different idea of what feminine is and how I want to express that since I have come out. Looking or behaving sexy is not part of that.