Lawsuit asks state to pay for inmate's sex-change operation- What do you think?

[tantalizingfemme]

To answer the question of the OP, no, a sex change (in my opinion) is beyond the scope of what any DOC facility is expected to provide for an inmate.

Secondly, who would want a state funded physician/surgeon to provide said surgery? Think that an inmate is going to to have a say as to whom the doctor/surgeon will be who will perform this specialized surgery? Imagine the recovery period in a prison infirmary.... The system is not going to pay for doctor so and so in California who specializes in blah blah blah and then let the inmate stay for a period of recovery..... come on....

I worked as a transitional case manager for HIV Positive/AIDs-Defined inmates (male and female) getting ready to move back in to the community. The medical offices in the prisons covered all necessary medical needs to ensure the inmates health.....a lot of money in medications and doctors visits in and outside of the prison... however, anything beyond.... no.

Rape happens in both men's and women's prisons, it does not discriminate. If necessary, the inmate can be placed in solitary confinement for their own safety.

I recall having a conversation with a guard at a male prison who stated that they have had/have inmates with male genitalia and breasts. The inmate cannot be sent to the women's prison, but they have to watch for the safety of the inmate in the men's prison so that inmate doesn't get harrassed, abused, raped, etc... so they put the person in solitary for their own safety.

Appropriate? Not necessarily. Safe for the inmate? Absolutely.

It does not matter what "type" of crime was committed or the amount of prison time a person received; anything beyond basic needs for health care is just that... beyond the prison health care system.

TF

[GinaSofia]

Daywalker:
I tried to quote your post but couldn't.. Prolly cause I'm reading
And texting from my phone. While it took forever to read your amazing story from my slow-ass cell, I just could not stop reading.
Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

[Martina]

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.

[tantalizingfemme]

[QUOTE=Martina;324805] The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. [QUOTE]


So, the answer is sex change surgery??? What about those who aren't trans? No resolution for them? It's okay for them to get raped? Maybe the answer is to find a solution for ALL inmates... not one particular population.

[Delish]

I say no! As far as the hormones, I am even ify on that. Heres why....My brother is in prison and recently diagnosed with Lupus and in kidney failure. UNLESS he was to HAVE to be admitted into the hospital they can NOT be given pain meds which I completely understand but also having the disease as well, I think its quite in humane!
Just my $.02

[moxie]

I think a potential issue with this could be that if it is approved for the DOC to pay for the surgery, that it could send a message to people that "Hey, if I commit this crime and I am incarcerated in the state penal system (not the city/county jail) that I could get this surgery". Therefore, for some people who feel very hopeless and see as this as their only option to get the surgery, will commit crimes for this sole purpose. This might not seem logical to you (as a whole), and even preposterous, but very plausible.

Look at the recidivism rates in the US. More than 60% re-offend within 3 years (most within the first 6-12 months) of release, many of those people re-offend because of the limited options available to them upon release due to laws and regulations that vary from state-to-state. Healthcare is one of those limited options. (If you are interested in this type of reading, I recommend When Prisoners Come Home:Parole and Prisoner Reentry by Joan Petersilia)

In an ideal world, everyone would be able to get the healthcare they need and deserve, so this wouldn't be an issue and the lawsuit would be moot. But that is not how the US is in regards to healthcare currently.

[Ebon]

If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. What did she expect to happen in PRISON! Hell no she shouldn't get surgery. I work my ass off everyday, I don't kill people and nobody is paying for shit except for me. If you don't want to get raped in prison don't kill people.

[AtLast]

[quote=tantalizingfemme;324809][QUOTE=Martina;324805] The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison.

So, the answer is sex change surgery??? What about those who aren't trans? No resolution for them? It's okay for them to get raped? Maybe the answer is to find a solution for ALL inmates... not one particular population.

You are right on!

I agree- the premise (and I have thought this all along) in the article is faulty- does not hold water. There are many other things that can be done to prevent sexual assaults in prisons. These things have to do with how the facility is run and measures taken.

People that work in correctional institutions have expertise about this. Funds going to renovating prisons and utilizing the newer types of control mechanisms to keep both prisoners and staff safer are important. I don't know if we have any members that work in corrections, but it would be great to have info on the modern ways they are built and staffed in order to cut down (and even fully prevent) these assaults. Most of them happen because of outdated facilities it appears from what I have read. Actually, during one of my late night insomnia episodes I watched a program about how these things can be prevented by prison upgrades and building new prisons differently. Overcrowding is a problem as well.

Any inmate of any gender can be raped in prison. No one should have to fear rape, yet prison certainly isn't the only place it happens. Hell, a 16 year old HS girl was gang raped at a Prom in Richmond, CA.

[Luckydwg07]

Originally Posted by Martina

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.

Actually one can juxtapose immate needs with needs of the homeless.(alot of homeless are that way by no fault of thier own) the money is from the same pie. I just would rather see a law abiding citizen be up one more rung on the social ladder thats all.
Rape isn't just in jails- it plaugues us all

[Jess]

I saw this today and remembered this thread. While this inmates reason doesn't seem to be rape, it still brings up the question of state funding for gender reassignment/ corrective surgery.
It seems ( from this very brief article) that the prison system is trying to work with her, regarding pronoun usage and attire, however, I doubt that funding for her surgery is going to come from any Virginia budget.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wednesday June 08, 2011


Inmate Ophelia De’lonta filed a federal lawsuit requesting the state provide her the medical care necessary to complete her sex change. While in the all-male Buckingham Correctional Center, De’lonta has been self mutilating in an attempt to remove her male genitalia.

According to the Associated Press, if she wins, she will be the first inmate to receive a state-funded sex change operations. Similar lawsuits in other states have not passed and lawmakers are working to ban taxpayer money to fund these operations.

“The notion that taxpayers are going to fund a sex change is just ridiculous,” Del. Todd Gilbert said in the article – he will seek legislation if De’lonta wins the lawsuit.

If she loses, De’lonta says she will continue trying to remove her parts and acknowledges that it could kill her, but she says she wants to be at piece.

The prison has made special allowances for feminine clothing and therapy.

More from the Associate Press:

The hormones and other treatments had kept her urges in check for years. She snapped Oct. 8 when an officer used a male pronoun toward her, despite a court order that prison workers refer to her as a woman.

“I screamed ‘She, damnit!’ becoming so overwhelmed it was hard to breathe,” De’lonta said.

Looking down, she felt repulsed and helpless. She cried herself to sleep, then hours later she prepared for her surgery attempt by covering her cell door’s window with paper and putting towels around the commode.

Copied from: www.gayrva.com

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.

Completely late on this one, but it's something I was struggling with, but then hearing from trans people I know who were incarcerated up here I guess I just think there's a lot of things to be considered when you're talking about inmates and what is "deserved" or not. I agree largely with this post, though. I think that if you live in a province/state/nation where the government does not offer to pay for SRS under any circumstances, then the priority should not be barring one part of the trans population (in this case, prison inmates) from getting SRS just because the majority don't have access to it. I think it is about setting a precedent. If prison inmates are the first ones to get government-funded SRS, and that eventually leads to the rest of the trans community getting government-funded SRS, I don't see a problem. I don't see SRS as a cosmetic surgery or a luxury, but a surgery that is often necessary as far as the mental health of the trans person involved, no matter who they are and what they've done. Unfortunately, most governments haven't recognised that yet. I don't really believe in "because I can't have it, you can't have it" kind of deal. I don't think that solves much. Both populations need it, the way I see it.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I think the state should pay for surgery for trans inmates. I fully agree that it sucks that so many people aren't able to get surgery because they can't afford it. That's why I'm doing everything I can to fight for *real* national healthcare in the US. I don't think the solution to the fact that shit sucks for some people is to make sure it sucks for everyone. Inmates are still human beings and should not have medical care withheld as punishment for their crimes.

[Nadeest]

I don't agree with the state paying for an inmate's srs surgury, however, they do pay for a lot other inmate's surguries. Why is there a difference? SRS is medically necessary even though a lot of people don't think so.
I do think that transgender women should be placed in the women's prisons, though, instead of in the men's one; and that hormone treatment should be given to them. The same thing applies to transgender men, to my mind.
Let's also remember that a lot of transgendered people end up in the underground economy primarily because people discriminate against them and often don't hire them. That obviously isn't why this person ended up in prison, however.

[Soft*Silver]

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by softness

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

Good point and a good comparison. Prisoners do and should get basic medical treatment while incarcerated and mental health treatment. I agree with this, but do not support the state paying for SRS or BDD surgeries.

[Breathless]

This is a very interesting debate. My opinion is, in regards to continuing hormone therapy, absolutely. If the decision was made prior to being convicted, and treatments were started prior, then it is an issue of continuing medical care. To make the decision to start while in prison, I don't think so. If someone was lets say to have rhinoplasty prior to being incarcerated would it not be humane to have their last check up to removed stitches? I have to ask, if these people were 'free' who would pay for their surgery then in the state of California? In my understanding, it is the individual, and they would have to save up substantial money to afford the surgery, I think the same person should be responsible for the cost despite being in prison. Now taking into consideration the fact that they are not able to go out into the community and seek consultations with different dr.'s, that is where I think the prison needs to be of assistance. Providing the options, however not footing the bill.
On another note, if you have made your declaration as being transgendered, and are being recognized as male, or female, then the option of which jail you wish to reside is not your choice. I don't feel that it is right for someone to say.. yes I am a woman, recognize me as such, but please just leave me in the men’s prison. All or nothing. Choose your battles wisely.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by softness

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

Sorry, but this post really fucking shocked me. Are you really comparing dysphoria to BDD? It's not an apt comparison at all, unless you believe that transfolks suffer from a delusion created by chemical imbalance (meaning, you believe they really aren't the identity they claim to be) when they suffer from dysphoria, or are suffering from an illusion about their bodies when they suffer from dysphoria or wish to alter their bodies. I see that as extremely transphobic and reminiscent of the arguments right-wing christians and anti-trans feminists use against us, when they start blabbering on about "mutilating healthy 'female' bodies" and how we shouldn't be permitted legally to undergo SRS and HRT.

BDD, unlike dysphoria, can be "treated" or "cured" through counseling and psychiatric medication. It is not necessary to change the body part in order to take away the sensation that something should not be there/should be there, and appears to be caused by chemical imbalance in the brain.

With dysphoria in transguys or transwomen, it is not something that disappears or is reduced through counseling or psychiatric medication, as it is not related to a chemical imbalance, but, instead, research suggests the actual sexual makeup of the brain is congruent with that of the sex the individual identifies with.

Mental health counseling does very, very little for dysphoria, and even the trans-friendly medical community is beginning to understand this (hence, the changes in protocol as far as starting HRT and getting SRS; as in, you no longer need a letter to do it).

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Breathless

This is a very interesting debate. My opinion is, in regards to continuing hormone therapy, absolutely. If the decision was made prior to being convicted, and treatments were started prior, then it is an issue of continuing medical care. To make the decision to start while in prison, I don't think so. If someone was lets say to have rhinoplasty prior to being incarcerated would it not be humane to have their last check up to removed stitches?

I really dislike these comparisons. Do you see the difference between rhinoplasty and SRS? SRS isn't for cosmetic purposes.

I have to ask, if these people were 'free' who would pay for their surgery then in the state of California? In my understanding, it is the individual, and they would have to save up substantial money to afford the surgery, I think the same person should be responsible for the cost despite being in prison. Now taking into consideration the fact that they are not able to go out into the community and seek consultations with different dr.'s, that is where I think the prison needs to be of assistance. Providing the options, however not footing the bill.

To me this comes down to the US moving toward public healthcare, and if having the state pay for SRS for trans inmates is a step in t hat direction, I don't see the problem. In Ontario, OHIP pays for SRS for those who seek a year's worth of counseling, and I'm not sure I see the problem with that. While it's not perfect (to require counseling, imo, is wrong), it shows a positive step and changing attitudes within the medical community wherein they've begun to see the importance of SRS to the basic health needs of trans individuals.

On another note, if you have made your declaration as being transgendered, and are being recognized as male, or female, then the option of which jail you wish to reside is not your choice. I don't feel that it is right for someone to say.. yes I am a woman, recognize me as such, but please just leave me in the men’s prison. All or nothing. Choose your battles wisely.

I've known a few transfolks who have been incarcerated in Ontario prisons. You don't get to choose which prison they put you in. I've known people who start off in a male prison, get shifted over to a female prison and back and forth again. Additionally, they were treated very poorly and humiliated by the guards, placed in solitary confinement away from the general population without the basic necessities (warmth, proper food, the courtesy of being told which prison they're in etc.) The prison system, at least over here (and seems to be the same in US), does not seem to know how to deal with trans inmates, and inmates have very little control over where they go. I think it's very easy for someone who isn't trans or who isn't a trans inmate to say "all or nothing," but when you're in the actual situation with your own well-being in mind (given that nobody else seems to have it in mind), and realizing that you have very little control over your own situation, it's an entirely different ball game.

[Chancie]

I gotta say, I knew I would be sorry if I reread this thread.

Some of you are very politically conservative.

I certainly don't know as much as other members here about single payer health care

But I have to ask

In how many other so called civilized countries do people in need of medical care have to go without?

[starryeyes]

She murdered someone....over some fucking clothes. No, I don't think her life should be made any easier. Do I agree that she should be raped and harassed?? No. But, she is there for a reason. Sorry sista... No support from me. The prison should have separate areas for sensitive cases, maybe.