Men with boobs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

YES!!!

This would be very helpful for me, here is why not that you asked..

English is my second language, so I hear and read everyone in a spanish filter then I have to translate, add the fucking dyslexia and I wanna scream sometimes.

Thank you...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

God yes!

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

I refuse to give a pronoun that much power over me.

Rufus

Good for you!

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

See I too have used this word to describe what you are saying, and getting the info from the horses mouth made it true so now I am fucking confused.

Right? But if it is the wrong word, I shall not use it again. I didn't know that was how it was being interpreted at all. Again, my apologies.

[Jett]

Deleting... because frankly... it's tired, lol.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

In other words... using "she" as if an effective means to lessen someones stature and strength- weakening of their character (emasculation)...

Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I know you're not asking me SF, but I'd say it is disrespectful, thoughtless rude etc.

I agree the person using it probably is attempting to emasculate... but in that not only insulting male ID but female ID by using their pronoun as if it is an "emasculator".

And to agree that's what it does... is to agree it's a feminizing pronoun.

In a nutshell... saying "she" emasculates someone is saying butches who use it by choice are not masculine.

Which is just another form of masculinity=male.

Peace,
Metro

Yes this is how I see it.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I also think it emasculating to call a female id'd Butch he and him when they have not asked to be called that. BUT I will find another word to convey what I am saying. I think it goes a hell of a lot deeper than just being disrespectful, thoughtless and rude in either instance. Both are pointedly attacking gender.

I'm sorry for mis speaking. I apologize.

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I know Im off topic again but this discussion is amazing and Im now wondering if anyone would find a thread about the binary of language and examples thereof interesting?
Not just in relation to gender but how the word "prissy" is seen in on way and the word "brusque" is seen in another.

Sounds interesting... yep.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't it if that is not how they identify? I *get it*. I'll not use the word again. Let's move along, ok?

Ah yeah... I had already deleted that post to "move along".

And you can use the word if you want, that's not up to me... I was just responding to your bringing it up and asking questions specifically about it and giving my perspective (and also- I was replying to Rufusboi)

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I can see this as well. I think it was Cyclopedea who said earlier that it felt like we were being neutered when called He by default and I agreed with her. That's kind of the same thing you are saying, only it's not using a different word.

I do object to seeing masculine used in ways to signify non-female or non-woman. I don't care for masculine-identified because it seems to signify non-female, non-woman. At the same time, there are big limitations in language for people to use to describe themselves in non-binary terms.

I am really not trying to be picky, but She can be just as masculine as He in my opinion.

Adele, I really didn't take this as coming from you personally. Other people were talking about that it and people use emasculate and feminize as terms a lot when referring to butch, but thank you. You are always very considerate.

I agree that She can be just as masculine. Maybe one day language will catch up to reality? I sure hope so. A girl can only stick her foot in her mouth so many times without getting crud mouth.

[JustJo]

I've been reading this thread all along...learning alot, questioning alot...

For me, the crux of the whole matter is intentionality. If I make an honest mistake in pronoun use, or even with someone's name, and apologize and correct, then I think most folks are okay with that. Heck, I get "he'd" in my work life....my name is Jo and I have a deep voice, and most of my co-workers have never seen me since I work virtually. Many have thought they were meeting "Joe" at our annual company meeting (which has led to some pretty funny conversations btw...). I laugh it off because, frankly, I don't care. It's a misunderstanding, nothing more.

I'm astounded to read about some of the nastiness though....telling femmes that they're acting "too butch", intentionally calling an ex by the opposite pronoun or a given name to purposefully disrespect them. The issue, for me anyway, isn't whether I accidentally call someone "hy" that uses "she" or vice versa. The issue is if we are using gender, or sexual preferences, as a way to beat each other over the head out of sheer nastiness.

Again, just for me...this sounds like middle-school bullying whereby the vicious kids spotted and zeroed in on the sore spot in order to victimize and belittle ....the short one, the fat one, the nerdy one, the "fill in the blank" one. For me, that's different from misogyny...that's just plain mean.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Heart

You know what? I think we get fixated on pronouns as a way to avoid deeper issues. As if pronoun usage is the be-all and end-all of respect and liberation. That's kind of funny actually. And really, its such a privileged position when you think about it -- getting to determine what pronoun you use, getting to demand that everyone remember it, getting to be offended when someone gets it wrong, Asserting ourselves over pronouns on this site and others becomes a primary focus. Whatever.

Once the discussion in this thread turned to pronouns, I wasn't moved to participate and I haven't read all the other threads, though I did vote in Nat's poll. I voted that I sometimes default to "she" for butches. Why do I do that? Quite simply because everyone's individual, personal pronoun preference and their whole personal history and journey of how they got there does not matter to me as much, or more, than the underlying cultural, social assumptions, messages, and "isms" (read sexism) that are continually being played out in queer communities around such things as pronoun choice. So, I default to "she" as a minor form of resistence against that. (Please note: I said default. I did not say that I use "she" willfully against someone's stated preference.)

There. I said it. That felt good.

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

[Dylan]

And here's something else.

No one is *attacking* femmes

No one is putting *more burden* on femmes to remember something

Personally, I see this behavior MORE from femmes than I do butches. Other butches have stated the same thing. Some femmes have stated the same thing.

In a previous post, I mentioned a party and FIB who kept referring to MIB butches as 'she'. The FIB butch was constantly referred to as 'he'. When she stated it was disrespectful to FIBs to use 'he', and that it didn't create a 'welcoming' atmosphere for FIBs, she was told not to come back...that the party was indeed 'welcoming' to all. Another FIB was told the same thing when she complained about it. Subsequent FIB butches who brought up the same thing were also not 'welcomed' back, and they were in fact, mocked for saying it wasn't welcoming to FIBs. So, FIBs are expected to conform or be excommunicated from the group? NOT ONLY are they expected to be mindful of MIB's pronouns, they're also expected to accept being he'd. If they don't conform, they're not welcome to return?

And yet, somehow, we're being told 'femmes are being punished more than butches who 'screw up'...really? Because butches who don't comply aren't welcome in the (so called) 'community'.

I've watched for many years as new butches who started as she end up becoming he...because they know if they don't comply, they'll be ousted from the group.

Saying anything about this issue brings either a 'sigh and a shrug with a giggle and a whatever', or a 'don't come back'.

And to be 100% clear, I, personally, am NOT talking about honest mistakes. I, personally, am talking about PURPOSEFUL, INTENTIONAL misassignment of pronouns. I have a feeling that's what other butches are talking about also. If someone new 'she's' me, I'm likely to correct them, and move on. If they continue to do it, we're gonna have some words. If they switch up my pronoun depending on what conversation they're having, because they either do or don't want to be outed, or whatever other lame excuse they come up with, we're not going to be speaking anymore.


Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

My point was this: If somebody IS a male id'd butch, has asked to be called hy/he and now has the name Trenton instead of Tiffany? It IS emasculating (or whatever word you think fits here. if there is a better word, please tell me) for somebody to attack their chosen gender and use their given name as a way to be hurtful.

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

What would you find it as if the person in question was not trans?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I wouldn't find it necessarily emasculating

I would find it intentionally transphobic


Not That You Asked Me, But That's The Word I Would Use,
Dylan

Yeah, I think the underlying issues around intentionally using the incorrect pronouns are misogyny and/or transphobia.

Since I go by she no one can "she me," but I have had people who were unhappy with me talk about how you're not really butch, you don't know how to repair things, you're too sensitive blah blah that' s not butch. When they were happy with me I was oh so butch, such a stud, etc.

I also feel it is misogynistic to have the default for butch be He/Hy. I think it's saying women really can't be butches. It's also something that many of us who were online on another website found as the cultural norm and sometimes old habits are hard to break, However it doesn't mean we can't change or have to put up with them just because they are deeply entrenched.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What would you find it as if the person in question was not trans?

Personally, and this is just me me me, I find it transgendered phobic. And I find it so, because we live in a world in which ANYONE who steps outside of the gender conformity is met with harsh consequences. This is why I personally, make a huge distinction between transgender and transsexed. ANYONE stepping out of 'this is what girls do, and this is what boys do" is met with name calling (including 'he-she'), threats, pokes, jabs, and a 'shoving' back into conformity through a number of different routes...including intentional misuse of pronouns.

"Well, if you want to look/act like a man, I'm going to treat you like a man"

"If you want to be a man so bad..."

What would YOU call it if I continually and purposefully called you, "he"?


Dylan

[betenoire]

I find it unfortunate that we've spiraled into a discussion of what word SuperFemme -should- have used, when it's clear and established that her intent/meaning was spot-on. It sounds like semantics to me.

We all already know what she meant, as she's had to explain herself over and over again. Why not just go ahead and accept her original comment AS SHE MEANT IT and move on? I think it's just so shitty that she's been made to feel as though she should apologise because the interpretation of a word that she had is different from that of (some) other people.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's a *privilege* to expect someone to use the correct pronoun? Really? And what kind of privilege is it when women expect to be seen as women?

Because I know you can't be talking about transsexed folks here *demanding* that people use the correct pronoun. Because it's actually quite cis-sexed privileged for people to pick and choose transfolks' pronouns as they see fit.

Lisa Haney and Julia Serano (transfeminists) have broken that down a number of times.

I would also argue that it's cis-gendered privileged for others to pick and choose the pronoun of gender non-conforming folks.

It's funny to me when those who sit in the *privilege* of NEVER having their pronouns screwed up start whipping out the "It's so privileged for you to *demand* I get your pronoun correct"...ESPECIALLY coming from someone who gets so upset by Cynthia Nixon's Men With Boobs comment. I don't understand how you sit and type with one hand that the comment, "A man with boobs" is so sexist, and everything else...yet you then say, it's privileged to expect people not to default to he for butches with the other hand. Because I've seen you type a million times that it's sexist to default to he for butches. So, which is it? Are butches the oppressed in a sexist and gender-normative world, or are they The Privileged?

Honestly, this sounds like a defensive tactic, because you feel that femmes are being unduly 'attacked' when butches (and even some femmes in this thread) point out that they see this behavior more from femmes (the gender normative group) than they do butches.

It's NOT a privilege to expect people to get your pronoun right. It's NOT a privilege to be offended when people you've corrected umpteen times just sit and 'sigh' and shrug it off and whatever you when they PURPOSELY use whatever pronoun makes THEM comfortable as a means to erase you.


Dylan

My context is much MUCH broader than you are aware of Dylan, and has zip to do with femmes being attacked. In much of the world, the very idea of getting to assert one's gender is so beyond the pale that its unthinkable. Asserting one's sexuality, orientation, etc can result in imprisonment, rape, or death. So yes, the fact that we are having any kind of discussion about asserting our preferred gender pronouns is a privilege.

And by-the-way, there are femmes that prefer pronouns other than "she" and their assertion is also privileged. Every single one of us here, femme, butch, trans, male, female, has the pronoun-assertion privilege that I am referring to. This exists alongside the ongoing issues of sexism and misogyny that also get played out here (and have, I believe, a particular impact on butch women). It's not an either/or thing.

[Beau]

There are so many issues underlying the pronoun debate, which are uncomfortable, possibly even painful for some, to discuss.

We can snipe at each other all day, but that's just another form of avoidance. If many of you, like me, are sick of this circular conversation and truly still wish to help educate and enlighten both new and old members, why not deal with that subtext present in the improper, intentional use of pronouns?

Otherwise, this is a clusterfuck without end, but -- more importantly -- it's a completely wasted effort and will just re-emerge in another form on this forum.

Dylan makes very valid points about intentional vs. accidental pronoun reference. So, my question is -- why does that occur?

My answer: internalized homophobia

Bulldog makes very valid points about the use of "she" needing to be viewed on equal footing with "he" if we're truly going to show respect for all flavors/identities (butch, trans, etc.). So, my question is -- why isn't it viewed equally?

My answer: internalized homophobia

Many on this thread have spoken to the pressures they feel to conform to a male ID in order to maintain public social status as "butch enough". So, my question is -- why does there even need to be a comparison between butches?

My answer: internalized homophobia [makes us defer to patriarchal standards]

What I'm getting at is, I hope, rather blatant. If we cannot accept ourselves as gay, queer, lesbian, transgendered, or transsexed, how will the larger society ever come to accept us as equals? Short answer: they won't, and we help them to never have to when we perpetuate these mindsets and issues within our own communities.

Most butches have horror stories of nonacceptance in various settings -- both straight and gay. Yes, it smacks of misogyny because the rules in patriarchal society are firmly established and catered to, but for us to swallow that societal bullshit and regurgitate it in the form of codes of conduct, social mores, and behavioral values among ourselves merely displays internalized homophobia.

Please consider discussing that in reference to Cynthia Nixon's thoughtless remark, pronoun preference and reference, and hierarchies within our community that manifest as male over female. That, for me -- and I hope for many others -- would be most useful. Perhaps it might even lead to real change.

I hope it will.

thanks in advance,
Beau

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Beau

My answer: internalized homophobia

Beau

I agree 100% that it's a matter of internalized homophobia (except in the cases of transfolks when it's a blatant form of transphobia)


Dylan