09-02-2011, 10:05 AM | #481 | |
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09-02-2011, 11:26 AM | #482 | ||
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Humoring people is the politically correct thing to do these days. When you don't perform the mandated "politeness", or when you step on someone's theology/theory/beliefs, you run the risk of getting bashed, labeled and/or censored. It's anti-liberation, for some, but not all. This is an essential issue for women because we have been forced/coerced into adopting other people's "ethic(s)" against our best interests since, well, since forever. What are the contemporary, overt/covert ethical mandates in the culture, and the "community"? Do the mandates of the culture and the "community" differ, really, really? ....Are the community's mandates biased in favor of gender theory over Lesbian Feminism? ....Are the community mandates coercive? Do they force (some) lesbian women to self-censor, walk on eggshells, relinquish personal agency, shut-up and go away? Who's perceptions, intuitions, and reality are lesbian women suppose to embrace? Theirs or other people's? What are they to do when their's don't comport with the PC mandates? (Become "separatists", I suppose.) These are not small issues. They're core Feminist issues.... There can be no Lesbian Pride without excavating them. I just read a really interesting article about patriarchy's ever evolving mandates for "good girlism". It was illuminating. "[W]hat I understand of the history of ethics in the modern period seems to fit with this [imposed standard for "good" and "evil"]. It [the cultural standard] was evolved by male citizen-administrators, working in a deep historical context of patriarchy, to enable their governing. It all makes me wonder if instead of seeking to create a Lesbian Ethics, we might consider learning to do without ethics entirely. And I think that it may turn out that this is what Sarah’s [Sarah Lucia Hoagland's] book [Lesbian Ethics: Toward New Value] will help us accomplish. [Sought to accomplish, anyway.] She is shifting from the language of the modem tradition of ethics: from knowing what is right to deciding what to pay attention to. And her last section is about meaning, the creation of meaning, not about “ethics.” - Marilyn Frye Quote:
For the life of me, I don't know why people get so testy when issues like "good-girlism" are brought up. For real, I really don't.... I, for one, am really committed to excavating the remnants of whatever patriarchal "good girlism" continue to reside in me. SHRUG |
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09-02-2011, 11:42 AM | #483 |
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I have a question?
What does being a feminist have anything to do with being a lesbian? I've stayed out of this thread because I'm not a lesbian... Nothing about that word resounds with me... When I was a baby dyke/bi-girl/fag hag trying to figure out who I was, the lesbian community had no use for me, didn't take me seriously, dismissed me as a curious straight girl. I had NO clue about butches and why I was only attracted to such a small percent of women. If I had found acceptance within the lesbian community, If I had known about butchs then maybe I wouldn't have spent all those years thinking I was 90% straight and 10 percent gay....Maybe I wouldn't have married my ex husband and then put us both through hell trying to figure out why I couldn't emotionally connect with him... I found acceptance and my *place*in the gay community with feminine gay men... These men were my *sisters* when women who should have been wanted nothing to do with me because I wore full face make up, curled my hair and wouldn't think to go out for the night unless I dress to the 9's.. I'm also not a feminist... I'm an egalitarian... I believe that if we stopped having so many different factions and all worked for a comon cause of equal rights for everyone, we might be further along... People are the same... There is good and bad in every faction...(yes. I'm aware of the contradiction with my reasons why the word lesbian doesn't resound with me... My reasoning is.. I don't believe all lesbians communities were like the one in Colo Springs when I was a youngster...Let's just say I emprinted on Gay...) Women, Men, Black, White, POC, Gay/Trans/Straight... the list goes on... We are all the same, no one faction is better or worse... I don't believe that all men are evil because one raped me.. I don't believe that all women are evil because one emotionally abused me.. Everyone is an individual, and while labels are useful to narrow down what you might have in common, they are not the be all and end all... When it boils down, every person is a individual with their own belief system.. ie.. June the lesbian and Kobi the lesbian... Damn it.. I got preachy again didn't I?
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09-02-2011, 12:21 PM | #484 | |
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Chazz - Yes, you're right, I did misread. I see that you very clearly state that you don't feel alone or isolated. I was also reacting to the implication that anyone who doesn't fall in line with a particular version of lesbian empowerment is somehow not working against the oppression of women, or is suspect as a feminist. It's highly possible that at this point, I'm reading in. I don't recall using separatist in your direction, but perhaps I did. I'm too tired to go back and look.
Even in the quote below Chazz, you imply that lesbians should "focus on themselves and the forces that oppress women." Well... do you mean women, or do you mean lesbians? It's interesting, looking back on my own lesbian feminist politics and activism... many of the lesbians I worked with side-by-side in the shelter movement were working for the benefit of all women, in fact mostly straight women, (being that there was less awareness at that time, of the amount of domestic violence in lesbian relationships). I have always defined my feminism as being on behalf of women, including lesbians, but not just lesbians. So I find this term: lesbian/woman-centric, confusing. Is it lesbian centric or women centric? I've been called a separatist many times - often by other queers, usually when I was talking about the need for women's space, usually in the context of trans inclusion/exclusion. But I remember a young straight woman accused me of separatism based upon my anti-violence-against-women work. (She claimed, erroneously, that men were "as likely" to be abused as women.) I gave her a lesson in statistics and then said something along the lines of: As long as patriarchy and gender-genocide separate women out to be objectified, violated, oppressed, and murdered based upon being female -- go ahead and call me a separatist. I'll wear it proudly. When I said all women, I meant lesbians. I also meant married women in Appalachia, young girls in Nepal, old women in China, and trans women in Philli. This makes me recall a trans person I knew about 10 years ago, (we've lost touch), who took T, had facial hair, could pass as male, used a gender neutral name, and insisted on female pronouns. Why? Because she wanted to express her solidarity with women, even as she shifted her own gender life. And not just queer women, all women. It was a very interesting political decision using her own personal identity as the landscape. It's something, actually, that butch women do by virtue of their very existence -- which is why the pronoun thing (using he, hy, hie, zie, etc), sometimes leaves me feeling a sense of loss. I have realized in the course of this discussion that I am woman-centric. I always have been. Even when I was a straight, married mom. Perhaps I confused that with being a "goldstar" lesbian, which obviously I'm not, but this thread has helped me to clarify my own focus - so for that, I am grateful. Heart Quote:
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09-02-2011, 06:10 PM | #485 |
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Until recently I held male as problematic, masculinity as suspect. It’s impossible to ignore all the violence and horror that men all over the world perpetrate daily against women. I was unable to separate masculinity from male, male from men and men from patriarchy. I held my own masculinity suspect and found it hard to own it. Slowly, over time, I have been able to see things a bit differently
While feminism is certainly about women it is a movement to end sexism, sexual exploitation and oppression. I don’t think we can do this without men. Women have for years re-examined and redefined femininity and what it means to be female in this sexist society. I think men need to do this as well. Men need to be responsible for examining and redefining masculinity in a different way, separate from the patriarchal model. The patriarchy really isn’t good for anyone (except, of course, those with power and money). Men are fairly screwed with this masculine ideal thing as well. Society’s definition of masculinity is so limited and limiting. I read somewhere about defining the version of male that is about having the right to be superior, to dominate women and any group deemed weaker as patriarchal masculinity. I think it is an important term for me to get in the habit of using. I think it is an act of feminism to work on separating maleness and masculinity from this patriarchal version. I think it is intelligently feminist to understand that we also need men and masculine people to challenge patriarchy I totally get women’s space and I do prefer to devote my energy to women. I just think it is prudent to remember that in order to end sexism, exploitation and oppression, to defeat patriarchy we will need our brothers. I don’t think it is an achievable goal without men, male identified and masculine people on our side. Probably this is nothing new to anyone, but it is actually revolutionary thought for me. |
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09-03-2011, 12:11 PM | #486 | |
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Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. |
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09-03-2011, 12:19 PM | #487 | |
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Many of us have and have raised male children and as parents realized that a sexist society is not good for either females or males- society at large. However, women have traditionally received the shit end of the stick. That does not mean, however, that men, male, masculine is viewed as negative. The institutions of patriarchy are the problem, not individual men. The institution of marriage has evolved past many of the patriarchal limits it held in the past (lots of new data on marriage being published). I sometimes get a little upset with many discussions on feminism completely focusing on middle class, white, childless perspectives. This too, is just not the reality any longer. Feminism has evolved and grown along with the changes in demographics of the US (including gender studies) and just cannot be viewed in the same old ways. |
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09-04-2011, 12:39 PM | #488 | |||||||
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I have become somewhat separatist on a number of so-called "women's issues". Reproductive rights is one of them. I use to be hugely invested in that issue, but I came to see that that this was an issue that potentially reproductive women needed to take the lead on. My reasons for that are complex, idiosyncratic and include the fact that I was spreading myself thin on issues that did not directly speak to my life circumstances, barring rape. Quote:
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Yes, the amount of misinformation, herstoric ignorance and just plain fact spinning is amazing. Clarification on that matters to me in conversations like this one because so many people, even within the LGBTQ "community", mistakenly think of separatism as anti-male. It's not; it's woman-centricism. Quote:
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"Straight women" identifying as lesbians, did nothing to address the fact that many of those straight women were hetero-male-relational caretakers. Lesbians are gyna-relational caretakers. That's a huge difference, especially under patriarchy..... Patriarchy takes care of men. It only takes care of women who take care of men. That leaves gyna-relational lesbians to fend for themselves, and one another. "[Male] comradeship/fraternity survives by draining women of their energy, female friendship is a bonding which is energizing/gynergizing. Female bonding is threatening to comradeship, because it is a relationship which ignores the brotherhood and exposes its relationships with women as property arrangements." - Nancy B. Howell (Nobody has to believe this, it's enough that I do.) The movement-of-women is still blocked by patriarchy. It's all I can do to take care of myself and other gyna-relational lesbians. Even that can be a tremendous strain, as in when I was fighting a hetero-male-centric family court system with limited financial resources and emotional support. I, and the lesbians I politik with, are seeking an ontological metamorphosis. That being, that women become the final cause of women under patriarchy. It's the only way I see to chip away AT patriarchy. It's become less and less a priority under post-modernist theories. Do I know that what I am saying is not popular in some circles- you betcha. Quote:
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09-06-2011, 04:31 PM | #489 |
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Interesting article by a butch about MWMF, trans inclusion, generational divides, and queer organizing.
http://www.bilerico.com/2011/09/an_o...ntent=FaceBook |
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09-11-2011, 05:28 AM | #490 | ||
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I ID as GODDESS! Yep, thats right and it has nothing to do with my dissociation with patriarchy. I'm not any ONE thing but a clear evolution of many things. As I move through the universe I shift, change, explore and to be honest I wouldn't allow anything to influence my desires. Quote:
I find it hard to call myself a lesbian. I find it hard to call myself anything, however I do love and honor feminine energy wherever it is present.
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08-28-2013, 06:24 PM | #491 |
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I just wanted to say I"m a PROUD LESBIAN AND I"M A BUTCH and I love lesbian Feminine women.
All the terminology for the diff. genders , ID"s, etc are making my head spin. I've been out a very long time, and only online have I ever truly encountered so many diff. ID"S and I still can't keep up with what means what here. I'm also confused as to the difference of for example what the difference between woman ID"d and female ID"d are. Maybe someone can explain a lot of this to me and help me get them stuck in my head, as for now, My Head is SPINNNING! Thanks Kobi for starting threads like these. But I just don't care for the going back and forth in them, and the derails. I don't get that at all. This is our community so why all the arguing going on in threads? I mean, not just this one, but a lot of them it seems to happen in. makes my head spin. And also, does anyone know if we have a lesbian thread for lesbian sex or a thread for lesbian butches and the lesbian femmes that love them? Not sure how to find it. Thanks.
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08-28-2013, 06:39 PM | #492 | |
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Hopefully the debating and the heated discussing helps us to understand each other better. People see things differently. And that's hard to come to terms with. Especially when most of us are so sure that the way we see it is the way it is. It's tricky to make room for beliefs that are so contrary to one's own. I think venues such as this makes that happen for many of us over time. Maybe not for every issue every time, but enough that it makes the debate worth the effort. Some people ID as female but not as a woman. Their sex is female but their gender is not woman. Hopefully this helps. |
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08-28-2013, 07:43 PM | #493 | |
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Can you give me an example of a person in general, so I can fully grasp this concept? I don't get it, I mean how can you ID as female but not as woman? If I say I am female ID"d butch on this site, what exactly does that mean now that I am totally confused. Does that mean to another person reading my ID here that I don't equate my female to mean I am woman? HELP???? And thank you Miss Tick for answering and trying to help me understand atleast this one particular IDying.
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08-28-2013, 07:58 PM | #494 | |
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08-28-2013, 08:15 PM | #495 |
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Female usually refers to biological sex and woman refers to gender. However, a lot of people on this site use female to refer to gender as well as biological sex, mostly because some butches consider themselves to be female but not a woman.
I personally don't use the term female-identified to describe myself, but it is frequently used here. However, when someone says they are female-identified, it doesn't necessary mean they don't consider themselves to be a woman. Some do, some don't. Sorry I can't make this any clearer because it isn't clear cut. It varies from person to person. |
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08-28-2013, 08:43 PM | #496 | |
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08-28-2013, 08:44 PM | #497 |
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Yes and yes. Thanks for your post. I pm'd Dapper and got some more things cleared up as well. I appreciate you all's help in my understanding. I have no issues with how anyone sees themselves, just wanna make sure I "get it". So thank you.
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09-02-2013, 01:50 PM | #498 |
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Reclaiming Lesbian Pride
[QUOTE=Heart;409361]You know.... maybe it's valid to ask oneself if one is appropriating or co-opting an identity.
Wow. I didn't understand what you were talking about at first but in the second reading it became much clearer. I hope the following is along the same thought lines as your post, but I doubt I can recreate your "ripples in a pond" writing style. It was very unique. My ex was a concrete, dispassionate thinker, especially when it came to her fixed version of butch and femme roles. They were set in concrete that she mixed before we met, and she would never discuss the topic if it meant straying off of her masterly definition. For a femme, she was very competitive with me and she had to be the top dog of our relationship. I didn't get it, but I loved her and went along with it. Our B/F definitions never matched, but with her I had to choose my battles. Now that I'm free, I realize that I am a lot more fluid about who I want to be from one day to the next. Though I have always been sexually attracted to "pretty girls" who were usually femme, I think I would love to meet a pretty girl who was butch. Just the sound of it makes me smile. Even a handsome one might do. Who can say? Thanks for the thought provoking post. |
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