08-26-2011, 11:59 AM | #41 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Butch Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 147
Thanks: 41
Thanked 794 Times in 129 Posts
Rep Power: 14631969 |
A quick thought on assimilation vs. radicalization ... I don't really see it as an either/or. I think both have a role to play and they can complement each other, as long as there are at least some common goals or outcomes.
My personal frame of reference for this is my activity in Queer Nation in the early 1990s. Some people in the gay community complained that we were too radical, too marginal, but in a conversation I had with a lesbian who had just become Seattle's first openly gay city council member, she pointed out that without QN, she would be the fringe, the radical edge. But with us out there, pushing boundaries, she suddenly looked more mainstream to people. The combination helped push the center, if you will, helped reframe the concept of normal. Actually the group doing this really effectively right now is the right wing. With the Tea Partiers out there moving the radical edge beyond the bounds of sanity, the "center" of the Republican party suddenly seems more mainstream, despite the fact that they are so conservative that many Nixon-era policies would be considered practically leftist by today's Republican standards.
__________________
Slater |
08-26-2011, 12:02 PM | #42 | |
Pink Confection
How Do You Identify?:
Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status:
Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Posts: 4,266
Thanks: 17,195
Thanked 11,380 Times in 2,839 Posts
Rep Power: 21474855 |
Quote:
I don't see anything inflamatory about any of your posts.
__________________
|
|
08-26-2011, 12:08 PM | #43 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
dorky queer femme bottom Preferred Pronoun?:
feminine ones Relationship Status:
single, dammit. Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 240
Thanks: 157
Thanked 716 Times in 158 Posts
Rep Power: 8075873 |
I'm conscious - maybe too conscious - of causing offense where none is meant. I don't want to do that. And this particular issue is one that is deeply and intensely personal for some. I don't want to give the impression that I am not an ally.
__________________
"If I'm in a room full of cookies, the cookies ain't got no damn chance." - Charles Barkley The meaning behind my screen name: |
The Following User Says Thank You to lettertodaddy For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 12:09 PM | #44 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
dorky queer femme bottom Preferred Pronoun?:
feminine ones Relationship Status:
single, dammit. Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: vancouver, bc
Posts: 240
Thanks: 157
Thanked 716 Times in 158 Posts
Rep Power: 8075873 |
Agreed. I'm rather more in favor of a both/and approach. It's the common goals idea that gets tricky.
__________________
"If I'm in a room full of cookies, the cookies ain't got no damn chance." - Charles Barkley The meaning behind my screen name: |
08-26-2011, 12:17 PM | #45 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?:
Your Grace Relationship Status:
I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In a gauze of mystery
Posts: 1,776
Thanks: 2,426
Thanked 9,723 Times in 1,612 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
LTD sorry, I posted and now there's a few posts - I see you are in favour of the right to choose and just addressing your ire with the phrasing. and I do understand that. Please consider the below a blather
LTD - I did non-marriage when I was striaght, refused to do it. didn't believe in it. that it was a bunch of hooey and oppressive bullshit. I didn't even want to be called a "girlfriend" because of the societal expectations it brings. I've since changed my mind, at the age of 42. I got married six months ago, in the netherlands, and my wife and I will move to canada as a couple. We could have even without the marriage, actually. My hettie best mate who doesn't want marraige and has the privilege to refuse it as an option, imported her hump-puppet from england to canada without a hitch - marriage wasn't necessary. I'm very glad about that. I'm also glad that you can import your partner even if you don't live together and have decided to never live together. there's a separate section for that definition of a commited relationship. That means, legally, you can have three different types of commited relationships wherein your rights are recognised in canada: Married, Domestic Partnership and Conjugal Partner. There's no need to get married to have them recognised. I would love it, if you could also get married to more than one person or at least have conjugal or domestic rights recognised for those who are poly. I think that would be fantastic. I personally am not asking to be "as good as heterosexuals" because I got a civil marriage in the netherlands. How absurd to see my queering of bonding ceremony as a bid for "being as good as"! Of course I am. I don't want a mortgage, I've had double mohawks, been non-monogamous from the age of 14 until the age of 38, lived in communal houses until last year, I'm socialist, traveled most of my life and in no way consider myself mainstream. Yet I wanted to marry the woman I loved. You know how the word queer has been taken back from our opressors - reclaimed? Well, that's what we did with our marriage. It's two women, no dowery, no one being given away, no vows, all home made food, my dress cost £10 and we had DJ friends from amsterdam, london and manchester DJ the music. Our relationship is about equality. our marriage is that way because it isn't the 1800's. nor is it the 1950's. we get to define how we want out marriage to be in terms of our dynamics. And because canada recognised the rights of non-married couples, no matter what sex they are, we get to have that choice. Don't want marriage? totally understand it's not for you. I felt that way for many years. Didn't see how it could be reformed by personal acts. Now I do. And I feel very differently. And it has nothing to do with the Joneses or straight people. I do lots of things that straight people do and it has nothing to do with approval. Considering most of my straight friends are very alternative lifestyle people, most things I do are what straight people do. Queering a ritual and a bonding legality is something my wife and I strongly believe in. we are making marriage a wider space for people to be in. And for those who don't want to be married, they are protected by laws too. However, if you don't belive in bringing the government into your relationship by registering your love on a tax form (lolz) then of course, you won't be able to claim those legal rights as easily. I don't ever look down on people who choose not to get married. I was one of them for a couple of decades. Most of my friends are of that ilk. In fact, most of my mates rather than saying "congrats! I know it took you a year and a half to get all the paper work and you were both depressed as hell when you thought you wouldn't be able to get married, but you did it, and although I don't want it for me, I know how much it means to the two of you, so tons of love for your hard work towards a goal you've achieved!".... most of them said "oh. oh yeah. fab. so did you see the ____ movie last week?" (ok not that bad but it sure felt like it). Yet when they've had their choice to have a commitment ceremonies or hand fastings (rather than a wedding), I've travelled four hours off to the trees and stripped half naked for them, bought gifts, baked cakes, helped cook for 30 people, etc. So it did hurt a bit. And personally I'm not striving for the status quo, thanks, I've been fighting for societal rights for a few decades (first strike I was allowed on was at 10 years old. lol. dad is a die hard socialist) and I've been fighting against multinationals - through direct action and protests - since I was 14. So the assumption that I'm being lazy and selling out because of marriage (accepting the status quo and not trying to to move beyond it) makes my nostrals flare a bit. But perhaps you are only addressing the website that rankled you. And personally I find the catchphrase a bit lacking. but perhaps they are mostly addressing the mainstream straight people with that phrase? that's the jist I get. Addressing the mainstream straight people with "better than what you'd ever do with it" I don't think would win much support for the cause of people wanting the choice to be able to marry. Just a hunch. |
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to imperfect_cupcake For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 12:19 PM | #46 | |
Power Femme
How Do You Identify?:
Cinnamon spiced, caramel colored, power-femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Married to a wonderful horse girl Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lat: 45.60 Lon: -122.60
Posts: 1,733
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 6,846 Times in 1,493 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851 |
Quote:
Cheers Aj
__________________
Proud member of the reality-based community. "People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so, the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up." (Terry Pratchett) |
|
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to dreadgeek For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 12:27 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?:
see above Relationship Status:
independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oakland
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 4,068
Thanked 7,657 Times in 1,522 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Urvashi Vaid is one of my heroines. If you have not read her book Virtual Equality I highly highly recommend it. She has a website if you want to read more of her thoughts.
Here is a quote from a speech given Aug 16, 2010 titled Beyond The Wedding Ring: LGBT Issues in the Age of Obama Fifteen years ago I wrote a book that described the path we had chosen of working for civil and political rights as a path that was leading us to Virtual Equality — a state of partial and uneven equality that is very far from the full human rights that we seek. I still agree with that diagnosis. Until LGBT people confront and challenge the moral opposition to gayness, until gay activists demand and command the respect of straight families, colleagues and friends, until LGBT people come out and claim their rightful place everywhere, until we stop believing those who defame, denigrate and deny our humanity and goodness – LGBT people and the LGBT social justice movement will fall short of being the transformative force it represents.
__________________
We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate |
08-26-2011, 12:33 PM | #48 | |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?:
Your Grace Relationship Status:
I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: In a gauze of mystery
Posts: 1,776
Thanks: 2,426
Thanked 9,723 Times in 1,612 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
|
|
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to imperfect_cupcake For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 12:33 PM | #49 | |
Power Femme
How Do You Identify?:
Cinnamon spiced, caramel colored, power-femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Married to a wonderful horse girl Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lat: 45.60 Lon: -122.60
Posts: 1,733
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 6,846 Times in 1,493 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851 |
Quote:
I think I actually do some good even though I'm assimilated and even though I work for a multinational corporation and even though I live in the suburbs and drive an Audi. There I am, every day at work, this dreadlocked butch woman who is unapologetic in her love for her partner. There are some *seriously* conservative people at my workplace and I have had to learn to get along with them as they have had to learn to get along with me. I have rattled their cages by pretty much shooting all of their expectations of me as a black, butch lesbian into deep space. Whatever images they might have held of black women or butch women or lesbians generally, I defy almost all of them and that makes them think. I've already had one person--a rather conservative Christian--come to me to say that they think their daughter is a lesbian and if they are right, they would like me to talk to her because they want her to have something positive to shoot for. I think that's progress. Cheers Aj
__________________
Proud member of the reality-based community. "People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so, the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up." (Terry Pratchett) |
|
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to dreadgeek For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 12:52 PM | #50 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Redheaded Bellydancing Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Very married Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 215
Thanks: 84
Thanked 778 Times in 171 Posts
Rep Power: 15100836 |
Quote:
__________________
Change the voices in your head Make them like you instead |
|
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to SecretAgentMa'am For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:12 PM | #51 |
MILLION $$$ PUSSY
How Do You Identify?:
Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
Iconic Ms. Relationship Status:
Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ** La Reina del Sur**
Posts: 22,488
Thanks: 32,231
Thanked 80,106 Times in 15,673 Posts
Rep Power: 21474873 |
So what happens to the weirdos who are not mainstream? What exactly is mainstream? I'm trying to grasp. What makes a weirdo?
__________________
"If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden Last edited by The_Lady_Snow; 08-26-2011 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Still thinking |
The Following User Says Thank You to The_Lady_Snow For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:23 PM | #52 |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Owned boy Preferred Pronoun?:
Hey boy!!! Relationship Status:
counting freckles slowly under Her direction!!! Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: i have 2 sets of geographic coordinates!!!
Posts: 6,097
Thanks: 26,797
Thanked 12,555 Times in 2,993 Posts
Rep Power: 21474857 |
Feminism isn't mainstream and neither was Harvey Milk. He also influenced Dianne Weinstein a Senator of California. I am not a fan of mainstream politicians that live in the closet. I think our community should aim higher.
__________________
|
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to weatherboi For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:25 PM | #53 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?:
see above Relationship Status:
independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oakland
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 4,068
Thanked 7,657 Times in 1,522 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Assimilation is not equality. Those of us who live in the burbs, white picket fence, either furry or non-furry kids are accepted (for the most part) ONLY because we look and act like our neighbors. As long as we look and act like our neighbors it's all good in the 'hood. They will even tolerate a suit and tie wearing butch to our faces, but inside that home they still think we are different and will do the 'why don't you get a real man' and 'she would be so pretty if she would just wear a dress and make-up' stuff. I doubt they would be so tolerant if they saw me come out in full leather, packing a big stiffy, with whips and chains attached to my chaps..........it would scare the bejesus out of them and they would clutch their children to their legs. They only tolerate us when we look and act like them on the surface.
And don't ever be fooled into thinking tolerance is a good thing. It's not. The good thing is acceptance. I'm not interested in being tolerated. I am interested in being recognized and accepted because I am a human being. Tolerance is a false equality. Acceptance is full equality.
__________________
We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate |
The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to Toughy For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:32 PM | #54 | |
Timed Out - TOS Drama
How Do You Identify?:
........ Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ........
Posts: 2,402
Thanks: 4,981
Thanked 8,925 Times in 1,834 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
Quote:
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Novelafemme For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:36 PM | #55 | |
Power Femme
How Do You Identify?:
Cinnamon spiced, caramel colored, power-femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Married to a wonderful horse girl Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lat: 45.60 Lon: -122.60
Posts: 1,733
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 6,846 Times in 1,493 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851 |
Quote:
Honestly, I'm not sure how to answer the first question because I'm not certain that I know what a weirdo is. I'm a nerd--as my signature and name show, I let my geek flag fly high and proud--is that mainstream? I would say no. My reading habits, my television preferences are not necessarily what I would call 'mainstream'. Even my choices of recreation--I am a player in one D&D game and I'm the DM in another, for instance--aren't mainstream. So am I a weirdo or am I mainstream? Do people in the mainstream get all excited because there's some new book on, for instance, the ongoing battle between string theorists and proponents of loop-quantum gravity? Do people in the mainstream own *multiple* copies--in different formats--of just about every word Terry Pratchett has ever written? Do people in the mainstream have a shower curtain that is the periodic table of elements and a poster showing the entire electromagnetic spectrum in the same room as a poster of Audre Lorde and another showing the entire history of the Universe as a single year? Are the favorite tee-shirts of someone in the mainstream ones that read: 98% Chimp Come to the Dark Side, we have cookies. Stand Back, I'm going to try Science! May the Mass Times Acceleration be with you I think mainstream and weirdo are rather nebulous terms. To the woman I was in 1991, I would probably appear horribly mainstream (I would still most likely have wanted the toys and would've thought the EMF poster insanely great and would have done just about anything for the tee shirts while feeling guilty for doing so). To most of the suits (read that as our marketing, sales and legal staff) at my employer I look so far beyond the mainstream that I am at the outer edge of what many of them consider to be human behavior! Do *I* think I'm in the mainstream? No, for all of the reasons above. Would someone who is more radical than me think I'm mainstream? Probably not and might even put me somewhere in the neighborhood of, say, Dick Cheney on the scale of acceptability. Cheers Aj
__________________
Proud member of the reality-based community. "People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so, the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up." (Terry Pratchett) |
|
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to dreadgeek For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:39 PM | #56 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Redheaded Bellydancing Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Very married Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 215
Thanks: 84
Thanked 778 Times in 171 Posts
Rep Power: 15100836 |
Personally, I don't think anyone is a weirdo. What I'm talking about is the perception of the average straight suburbanite. For them, meeting people like us means that the community as a whole doesn't seem so weird anymore.
__________________
Change the voices in your head Make them like you instead |
The Following User Says Thank You to SecretAgentMa'am For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:43 PM | #57 | |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
femme Preferred Pronoun?:
she/they Relationship Status:
single Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: pa
Posts: 2,703
Thanks: 17,488
Thanked 10,138 Times in 2,161 Posts
Rep Power: 21474853 |
Quote:
But........... reality is that if the straight couple everyone in the neighborhood adores and thinks of as "normal" were seen dressed as you described they would also be talked about, feared and people would question if it was safe to let the kids sleep over. I guess for me, it is not about being accepted as gay, it is about being accepted as a human.
__________________
A year from now you will wish that you started today~Karen Lamb |
|
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to amiyesiam For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:50 PM | #58 |
MILLION $$$ PUSSY
How Do You Identify?:
Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
Iconic Ms. Relationship Status:
Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ** La Reina del Sur**
Posts: 22,488
Thanks: 32,231
Thanked 80,106 Times in 15,673 Posts
Rep Power: 21474873 |
Learning.
Thank you Aj I'm finding my brain grabs certain words so I need to read stuff more than once.
__________________
"If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden |
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to The_Lady_Snow For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:52 PM | #59 | |
Power Femme
How Do You Identify?:
Cinnamon spiced, caramel colored, power-femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Married to a wonderful horse girl Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Lat: 45.60 Lon: -122.60
Posts: 1,733
Thanks: 1,132
Thanked 6,846 Times in 1,493 Posts
Rep Power: 21474851 |
Toughy:
So what does acceptance look like? How do we know when we're equal? Since it's not a function of where we live, it can't be because we have a house in this or that neighborhood that isn't being egged, burnt to the ground or having a cross burnt on the lawn. Okay, so abode and location are no indication that we've made progress, got it. It almost certainly not where we are employed and/or where we are on the food chain. Even if the new CEO of Apple is gay (and the rumor mill is that he is) that's not enough so we can't use whether or not one can be employed as an out gay X so let's strike that. It's not whether or not people will talk to us civilly because they might be talking behind our backs. Check. Maybe we can tell by how we are treated in school? Probably not for much the same reasons as our living, employment and social situations aren't indicative. So, since we have ruled out where one lives, what kinds of relations one has with one's neighbors, if one is treated equally in the workplace, what's left. How do we know that we are being treated equal? I also have to say that there are generations of immigrants who might strenuously disagree with you that assimilation isn't equality. If assimilation is being able to live in the house one chooses without fear that the neighbors will make it clear that you stay in that house at your own risk, then assimilation is leads to equality. If assimilation is being to apply for a job and your only concerns about whether you will get the job is if you have the right skill set and your personality is a good match for the team, then that is a form of equality. If assimilation is being able to be in school and to have your work judged by criteria relevant to the field of study as opposed to, say, whether one is gay or black or what-have-you, then that, too, is a form of equality. We have a president who is only a shade or two darker than I am named Barack Obama because he and his wife (who is two or three shades darker than me) assimilated. Unless that black person is in entertainment every black figure you have heard of is assimilated to a greater or lesser degree. If they aren't, then you haven't heard of them. Melissa Harris-Lacewell?Assimilated black woman. Eugene Robinson? Assimilated black man. Michael Eric Dyson? Assimilated black man. Mae Jamison? Assimilated black woman. Thurgood Marshall? Assimilated black man. What does acceptance look like, Toughy? Cheers Aj Quote:
__________________
Proud member of the reality-based community. "People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. And so, the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn’t that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. As soon as you saw people as things to be measured, they didn’t measure up." (Terry Pratchett) |
|
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dreadgeek For This Useful Post: |
08-26-2011, 01:54 PM | #60 | |
MILLION $$$ PUSSY
How Do You Identify?:
Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
Iconic Ms. Relationship Status:
Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: ** La Reina del Sur**
Posts: 22,488
Thanks: 32,231
Thanked 80,106 Times in 15,673 Posts
Rep Power: 21474873 |
Quote:
I have a different take on that ami, bdsm straight couples have gatherings alllll the time their neighbors think that's adventurous, kinky, fun!!! Us... We're the weirdo perversts
__________________
"If you’re going to play these dirty games of ours, then you might as well indulge completely. It’s all about turning back into an animal and that’s the beauty of it. Place your guilt on the sidewalk and take a blow torch to it (guilt is usually worthless anyway). Be perverted, be filthy, do things that mannered people shouldn’t do. If you’re going to be gross then go for it and don’t wimp out."---Master Aiden |
|
|
|