05-14-2012, 05:18 PM | #41 | |
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I know the conservatives always vote and are a hell of a lot better at showing a united front. We can pick apart President Obama and usher in another conservative Republican president. Yeah that will really help our cause.
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05-14-2012, 05:56 PM | #42 | |
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I fail to see how discussing things makes me some big party pooper. I voted for Obama last time and I will this time and would have even if he had not said publicly his view on gay marriage. He said it before he was President. I get that it is more meaningful now. I still am bummed though that he left it to the states. Maybe he will change that view. |
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05-14-2012, 05:59 PM | #43 |
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I prefer to build on victories. Momentum in a positive direction has the ability to change things.
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05-14-2012, 06:06 PM | #44 |
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So how is talking about what needs to be done in the future not building on victories? What does that mean to you? I am not being snarky with the question. Are you upset because there is not a longer period of celebration? To me Obama speaking out publicly is not a victory. Signed legislation is a victory. Court cases that set precedents are victories. I am very pleased to hear the President say clearly that he supports the right of same sex couples to marry.
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05-14-2012, 06:11 PM | #45 | |
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05-14-2012, 09:57 PM | #46 |
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maybe so, blush. i really, honestly, truly hope you're right. that's not been my experience. my experience has been people say "wait and let us get our little bit of whatever rights we want, and it'll trickle down to you" and it never does. people get their rights and they suddenly forget about all the people they're leaving behind.
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05-14-2012, 10:06 PM | #47 |
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I have been hearing many folks toss around terms like "normalized" and "mainstream" as though these are dirty words and "real" equality warriors don't want families. I find this especially laughable given that many of these so-called "mainstream" queer folk have endured the same hatred and discrimination. Do we really think Phelps is going to distinguish his hatred between mainstream and non-mainstream queer folk?
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05-14-2012, 10:11 PM | #48 | |
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It gets heated because it is so important (all of it)and we shouldn't have to fight it.
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05-14-2012, 10:28 PM | #49 | |
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we live in a society where we have a certain conception of what normal looks like (usually male, white, middle/upper-class, able-bodied, cisgender, monogamous, for starters). everyone else tends to be judged by how well they conform to that idea of normalcy. we police people's identities based on that conception of normalcy. some people who don't fit into those categories have some amount of acceptance, but that acceptance is always conditional and can be easily taken away. so, for example, being a woman - if you are a woman who's monogamous, white, and middle class, and you have the right job and you dress well and you stay inside certain lines, you have a certain amount of safety because you are trying to conform to the best of your abilities. if you are poor or a woman of color or a sex worker or fat or otherwise not a "good" woman, you are policed. and sometimes even if you try as hard as you can to be a "good" woman according to the standards of our society, that one time you get raped they'll try to find ANY indication that you weren't "good" and you'll get smacked upside the head so fast. i don't think there's anything wrong with being a monogamous, white, middle-class lesbian couple who just wants to get married and live in suburbia. i do think that that vision of what "queerness" is is what gets privileged. i do think there is a problem with saying "all queer people want to be just like you normal straight people! we're all mainstream!" because those of us who don't fit heteronormative society's ideas of what mainstream looks like then end up getting labeled as "bad queers." we're setting the movement back. recently a friend of mine who's a bisexual middle class 20-something white cisman with a nice professional job, living in suburbia, said, "god, those crazy queers at pride parades and you poly people are making us look bad." if i had a nickel for every time someone told me that...i'd be a wealthy woman. i don't have anything wrong with mainstream people. i think mainstream people deserve rights as much as the rest of us. i'm not saying every middle class lesbian who just wants to get married and live in suburbia needs to go live on the streets and be homeless. the problem is mainstream people tend to get rights and the rest of us tend to get left behind, in my experience (at least with the mainstream feminist and disability movements). i know so many straight people who are like "i'm all for gay marriage, but all that partying and hookup culture and crossdressing and stuff is just icky and gross." if we look like monogamous middle-class straight (mainly white) couples, it's sorta kinda okay. other expressions of queerness are not okay. obviously some straight people will never accept us no matter what. but it is true that if you try hard enough to conform and you don't have certain markers that automatically put you outside of the mainstream, you can get a little bit of conditional acceptance. and that's great. but it can be taken away in a heartbeat because that's how the society we live in operates. (and as we've seen with violence against poc and with the recent war on women, just as examples, it can be taken away from you no matter how much legal protection you think you have.) and some of us will never even have that. |
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05-14-2012, 10:34 PM | #50 | ||
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05-15-2012, 02:31 AM | #51 |
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Putting it beautifully in Australia
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05-15-2012, 01:50 PM | #52 |
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Again,
Thank you President Obama for saying what you did about Gay marriage. NO other sitting President has ever done that. I will not participate in picking apart what he said. I never ever thought a day would come when I was not afraid to walk down the street or go in a bar without being killed or ending up in jail. I am grateful and proud of President Obama.
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05-15-2012, 03:24 PM | #53 |
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White, middle class people are not the only people who get married.
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05-15-2012, 04:39 PM | #54 |
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I was waiting for someone to say that.
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05-15-2012, 04:51 PM | #55 | |
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I don't have the energy to search through this thread to find Ender's post wherein he asserts that there's no real benefit to bi-national couples who want to marry. That pissed me right off, but I'm already so irritated that I decided not to answer. That's a flat out ridiculous assertion, and there are a few people on this site who would be breathing fire if they were to have read it because of how deeply their forced seperation hurts them. There are far too many lgbt binational couples who are kept apart by their inability to marry. Amongst my friends, the butch member of the binational couple in the direst circumstance due to marriage inequality is a low-income woman of colour. There, now. Does that mean you can care about marriage equality now?
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05-16-2012, 05:00 AM | #56 | |
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In my own life I've had TWO ''gay" marriages. One to a TRANS MAN from a working class background (as am I from a working class background) and another to a woman who was NON WHITE and wasn't even born in the western world. Part of the reason we broke up was because she wanted to return to her part of the world which didn't recognise gay marriage (the other part was because she was an asshole, but enough about that). Earlier I posted a link to a Facebook page. If anyone believes that Bi-national couples don't need marriage, please click on it. *depending where you live of course
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05-16-2012, 05:49 AM | #57 |
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I admit to not reading every single post, but I think I pretty much have the jist here.
Not to sound ageist here, BUT, I do think that age may play a part in how significant one sees this announcement. First, living history is different from reading/hearing about it, so the feeling of validation from the President after spending a chunk of your life sneaking into gay bars, or just worrying about being beat the hell up (with societal support), is pretty damn powerful. Additionally, for those of us who are looking ahead to retirement and death, we tend to think about what we will need as we age and also what we will be leaving to our partners (including social security benefits). When I was in my late 20's or early 30's, this stuff wasn't as important to me. Now that I am 41 (and also had a serious health condition), I do. I guess I am saying two things. One is tangible and one is not. Both are important. One, for some of us Obama's announcement is the highest validation that we are just people, just like anyone else. We haven't heard that before. There is reason to believe that this will trickle down to how N. American society views, and then subsequently, treats us (like when I, a butch, am laying in a hospital bed and need my pain pill, the nurses might not move as slow to give it to me as they do now). Two, there is more hope now that I will be able to marry my partner and she can get my social security benefits at my death. Yeah, that is a big deal. Late for work or I would clean the above up a bit. Hope it makes sense.
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05-16-2012, 09:04 AM | #58 |
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Pardon me for jacking the thread. Not trying to belittle anyones point here. I agree on boths points. There's no shortage of identities except for human identities. But, I think I missed the part about Prop 8 and how big business (aka money) influences politicians and the media. I just can't think of a time in herstory/history when this was'nt true. Where there is money, folks will use it to influence politics. Hell, there's almost no point in being rich if your not going to use it to control politics and the media and the environment, and I don't think this is ever going to change.
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05-16-2012, 09:24 AM | #59 |
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Maybe i'm a dreamer but i look forward to the day when none of this is an issue.
In the grand scheme of things the President announced equal rights in marriage for all... whoopdee doo! To us that should be a given, equal rights. BUT He is also the FIRST President to make such a (sadly) bold statement. If he isn't re-elected, never heard of again, he paved the way for the next ..... and that is a BIG thing. He has made it OK for the President of the United States to speak up for our rights. i am not a big flag waiver, i never have been. i don't want to stand out because i am gay, i want to fit into society, to show society that we live and breathe just like they do. Straight folks don't waive the straight flag. But until we are equal in ever single right it's necessary for us to stand up for every single right we are denied. Some of us NEED a President to speak up for us. Being gay in Canada is so much different than in the states. It's just not as big of a deal here, i hope one day it is like that in the states. Until then we can't stop speaking up and backing those who do! If we pick apart the people who are trying to help, what good will that do? |
05-16-2012, 10:01 AM | #60 |
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Ya know I get that words are not legislation. But it is also true that you cannot legislate acceptance. Therefore it is also useful to have people in the public eye, especially respected individuals, advocating acceptance. Yet we do need the legislation. However to get the legislation before the acceptance is not without its own set of difficulties. I imagine you could pass a law making bigotry of any type illegal and you would not have any less bigots just more criminals.
Still laws need to change, however when they do it does not guarantee much of anything except exactly what the law allows. If you are allowed to marry then that’s exactly what you will get. No more, sometimes less, like when someone refuses to marry you because it’s against their religion, or if you can afford and want a wedding some will still be able to refuse to plan your wedding or allow you to hold your wedding in their establishment because of religious concerns. Perhaps because they advocated enthusiastically for the preservation of their particular version of human rights. When humans are not allowed to exercise what are considered human rights there needs to be a law in order for many of us to have any recourse, because clearly human rights are not a guarantee for all human beings. And for many of us humans they are non-existent unless specifically legislated. Legislation won’t change the fact that some people will still hate queers of any ilk (or hate some particular ilk much more energetically and emphatically than other ilks) and wish us nothing but pain and misery and even participate in various activities geared toward ensuring that we suffer pain and misery abundantly. But it will make certain activities geared toward creating specific pain and misery against the law. It will also add a small measure of protection in the form of consequences for breaking the law and trying to withhold the specific human right a specific legislation has granted us. And whether we personally want that right or not it’s still in all our best interests that we are validated legally as being worthy of a specific human right. I get that doesn’t mean diddly squat in regards to the plethora of basic human rights many of us are still denied. It also won’t change that some of us can and some of us will choose to join mainstream society. It won’t change that some (queer republicans come to mind) willfully, even cheerfully participate in their own oppression because they realize that the oppression of the rest of us, even if it means that they are also minimally oppressed in one aspect of their lives, is of more financial value to them than personal freedom and that equality in any form simply means less for them. It won’t change that some of us are myopic and see the world through a very privileged lens. It won’t change that some of us only have interest in what personally affects us and when we get what we want we go back to apathy, beer and baseball or whatever entertains us. It won’t change much, but it will require one particular human right to be available to one group of human beings previously denied it. And to me this can never be a bad thing. I guess I am trying to understand what exactly is being said here. If you are against gay marriage could you explain specifically what gay marriage will do to oppress certain segments of the queer population? Is it that it drains too much energy from various movements? Or is seen as the only legitimate movement? And if you are not against gay marriage per se, could you explain what you are against surrounding gay marriage. I have to add that the fact that without Canada’s federal recognition of same sex couples rights to immigrate Truly Scrumptious and I would not have been able to live together and that might make it difficult for me to understand another point of view. Neither of us are occupationally or financially privileged so we would have had no way to circumvent the immigration laws in the US. Family class was the only possible avenue open to either of us for immigration. So without Canada’s immigration laws it would have been exceedingly challenging, probably impossible, for us to be together sharing our lives every day (at least legally). I get that kind of relationship is not for everyone but it is for some of us and I doubt that sexual preference, class, race, gender, sex, intelligence, or even mental health dictates the existence of this need in an individual. Besides I don’t believe human rights are rights because they are popular or because everyone wants to exercise them. |
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