Dating other femmes exes: what do you think?

[Talon]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

This conversation has taken so many different directions that I hope you don't mind my asking - are you saying that you wouldn't date or flirt with someone just because they were the ex of a casual acquaintance, whose name and face you happened to know and whose path you sometimes crossed socially, but who was not someone with whom you had any close personal friendship?

I'm not at all challenging anyone who would choose that - each to her own, certainly! I just am curious as to whether or not that's what you meant.

I certainly don't mind you asking. I think it would depend upon how serious their relationship had been and also how long it had lasted. (in regards to a passing, casual aquantance).
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning". Generally, I think that people need time to go through that whole process (on both ends)..so I wouldn't want to get involved in that situation in any form, until some time had passed.

[Dance-with-me]

Originally Posted by Talon

I certainly don't mind you asking. I think it would depend upon how serious their relationship had been and also how long it had lasted. (in regards to a passing, casual aquantance).
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning". Generally, I think that people need time to go through that whole process (on both ends)..so I wouldn't want to get involved in that situation in any form, until some time had passed.

OK, I understand that - but how much of that is your responsibility and how much is hers? How are you supposed to be able to figure out how much time has passed before she is strong enough to see her ex moving on - presuming that she has chosen to be someplace where both she and her ex are socializing? Especially if you don't really know her and therefore don't know the dynamics of their relationship or of their breakup, you don't know what they've agreed to, you don't know if she's someone who takes responsibility for her own emotions or if she's someone who is going to seek out and project drama no matter how far she has to reach for it? Does she get to decide that two months is not enough time? Six months? A year? And if she decides that, how are you supposed to know what she has set as her boundary? Again, I'm speaking of an acquaintance, not a friend, and I'm just not seeing how I could ever make myself responsible for protecting an acquaintance's feelings - that's HER responsibility, and TO ME (as someone who has a long history as an enabler, btw, and has finally learned that it's not my job to fix or protect everyone) there's no way at all that I can take on that responsibility.

I'm also not including the situation alluded to in the friend's cop husband story -- he was just being a creepy a**hole. So if I knew that this ex was just being a callous jerk, then that's a whole different ball game -- but I'm still basing my decisions on my perceptions of the person who is trying to flirt with me, NOT on my sense of needing to protect that person's ex.

[Talon]

Originally Posted by Dance-with-me

OK, I understand that - but how much of that is your responsibility and how much is hers? How are you supposed to be able to figure out how much time has passed before she is strong enough to see her ex moving on - presuming that she has chosen to be someplace where both she and her ex are socializing? Especially if you don't really know her and therefore don't know the dynamics of their relationship or of their breakup, you don't know what they've agreed to, you don't know if she's someone who takes responsibility for her own emotions or if she's someone who is going to seek out and project drama no matter how far she has to reach for it? Does she get to decide that two months is not enough time? Six months? A year? And if she decides that, how are you supposed to know what she has set as her boundary? Again, I'm speaking of an acquaintance, not a friend, and I'm just not seeing how I could ever make myself responsible for protecting an acquaintance's feelings - that's HER responsibility, and TO ME (as someone who has a long history as an enabler, btw, and has finally learned that it's not my job to fix or protect everyone) there's no way at all that I can take on that responsibility.

I'm also not including the situation alluded to in the friend's cop husband story -- he was just being a creepy a**hole. So if I knew that this ex was just being a callous jerk, then that's a whole different ball game -- but I'm still basing my decisions on my perceptions of the person who is trying to flirt with me, NOT on my sense of needing to protect that person's ex.

Only speaking for myself here, but I don't get all up in my head about it. I can only use my intuition served with a side of common sense. The reality is, is that no one truly knows that ideal time. I don't neccessarily think about it as a responsibility at all. I just try to go by what I *think* is right..and what I *feel* is right. Then, *I* can live with whatever decision *I've* made.
It actually kinda has a selfish aspect to it..*chuckle*
For me, It's NOT about being an enabler or babysitting another's feelings.
This is how I would proceed in any situation...for the simple fact that I don't enjoy regrets, in any form.

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Talon

...
I try not to cause harm to those who are in "romantic mourning"....

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

Flirting is harmless! I always get confused why folks (general) confuse flirting, crushings, being nice as "HEY I WANNA MARRY YOU"


Flirting is simply that a short, instantaneous quick exchange of body language, words or looks with or without intent because sometimes flirting is started with the attempt to capture much more than just a moment.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

Bouncing off this....The significant difference would be if you have very VERY close femme friends or butch friends or whatever ID tight, "chosen family" friends, would know what line to not cross. I know *my* special chosen ones would as well as they know i would.

If it is an acquaintance, i believe, all bets are off. They wouldn't know the situation at all and it's not my responsibility to tell them nor is it theirs to steer clear if they don't want to. Femme or not femme. I figure things all come out in the wash eventually anyway. The peeps close to us know what went wrong to begin with, most of the time, and as others have said, would most likely steer clear.

Even with light flirting, there is a fine line that is never crossed with my select few of tighties. It's just respect for their relationships as well as respect for my own. It's not anything some of us would even have to think about...it's just natural.

But, kidding around flirting? Of course we do it sometimes. It's all in fun...again, boundaries, respect. It's not complicated.

That's how i feel about it anyway.

[Talon]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

This struck me as something significant. In the original post, the scenario was of an acquaintance, and many posts since then have touched on the possibility that an acquaintance might not know enough about Person A to know if she's hurt or over her ex. I think what you said above also brings up the point that everyone's definition of "doing harm" might vary. Many of the posts here stated that flirting is just that... flirting...and therefore, harmless. It isn't dating, it isn't having sex, it's flirting. To others that's a cardinal sin. So, I guess my point is that everything is relative and subjective. Someone not adhering to the "femme code" may not be acting out of malice, but out of a place that flirting is harmless.

>Well of course, we're all unique beings (obviously), so everything is ultimately subjective according to one's individual perspective, as well as their own personal life experiences.

I was asked my opinion, therefore I gave it.

Yeah, I actually *do* know what flirting is.

And sure, sometimes it is indeed harmless...but not always...and I think that most people can understand the difference between the two.

I also was not aware that "others" thought harmless flirting was a "CARDINAL SIN".

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

My friend and her girlfriend broke up after a one-year relationship. My friend started going out again a couple of months after the break-up and the woman that she knew and her ex blatantly flirted in front of her at a party. My friend was truly crushed.

I honestly did not know what to say to her (other than to empathize with her feelings) as it would never have been something that I personally would have done. I avoid a friend's (even an acquaintance's) ex out of respect for, lack of a better phrase: femme sisterhood. It just does not feel right to me personally.

What do you feel about this? Is it OK because the couple were broken up? Is there a respectable amount of time that should pass before you, as a femme, flirt with or date a friend's ex in front of another femme sister-even if not you are not close friends?

Does it matter?

Is it different online vs. real life?

Your thoughts?

Okay, I am not a Femme but I do have an opinion on this sort of thing. One of the first things I learned as a Baby Butch in my late teens and early 20's is that your buddies current and/or ex was off limits. Out of respect for your friend and even for her/his ex, it was better to just leave it alone. Maybe in time if you still felt a desire to date her/his ex, you would go to your friend and tell them your intention. It was not asking for permission. It was to be honest with your friend and get an idea as to how far along they were in their healing process or just simply letting go of the ex. If it is clear your friend is still grieving and healing, then it was up to me to make my decision.

Maybe this Old School Butch Code was not in all circles but I know it was part of my group. Did all live by this, no. However, it was clear there could be consequences. The consequences were you hurt someone you care about and/or you might even face some sort of physical fight, smack down.

As for "harmless flirting," sometimes it is harmless and sometimes it is not. I have experienced someone "harmlessly flirting" with my girlfriend in the threads and the next thing I know somehow this harmless flirter is their next butch. (No, not and this site or with regulars that frequent BFP.)

Obviously there was something not working in our relationship. There had to be or else the harmless flirter could not have wormed there way in. My point, flirting can be so much more then harmless.

[Prudence]

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Prudence

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

My thoughts as well. Thank you Prudence...

[GPS]

this is like a loaded question ....

[Ginger]

If someone wants to date one of my exes, you have my blessing.

I couldn't be happy with them, but who am I to deny their (or your, or any of my femme friends') pursuit of happiness with them.

If I were still in love with any of them, I guess I would feel differently, but I can't know for sure.

One of them, I knew I was over her when I heard she was dating someone and my gut response was a panicked urge to warn and protect the femme from going through what I did.

But that's the only strong reaction I've had, about any of my exes being with someone else.

For the most part, my exes are decent people, just not a good match with me. And there are so few choices out there, IMO, of people who are right for us. I don't want to make the field any more narrow for someone else.

When it comes to making what some would view as inappropriate choices of a lover, I also look with hope at the example of my sister, who fell in love with her neighbor.

She was married and had a toddler and a small child at the time. Couldn't possibly have been messier—not to mention, they had to alert their chief officers in the governments of two countries, because the men worked together in a sort of tricky configuration.

"Bless her heart," said my best gay male friend in his Texan twang. "An international incident."

I agree. I say bless her heart, which she followed.

Because now, 20 years later, instead of having endured with the wrong man, (who I love like a brother, but I understand why she didn't want to remain married to him), she is living with her best friend and lover, and they have the happiest, healthiest relationship I've ever seen, with lots of common interests, flirting, laughing, trust and a strong emotional bond.

If one of my exes if your truly right person, your once-in-a-lifetime chance at happiness, or even if you just want to have some fun with her, I say, Go for it, and again, you have my blessing.

[Hollylane]

One of the reasons it didn't even occur to me, for quite some time, to consider engaging in dating type conversation with Gaige, was because the only way I knew of her, other than her infrequent posts and the handsome photos of her I'd come across and admire in the gallery, was because she had dated someone in my circle of femme acquaintances. I didn't know, or need to know the reasons they were no longer dating. I only knew that they had. When Gaige did approach me, respectfully, for the friendship and conversation that lead to our wonderful romance, enough time had passed that I didn't feel that there was any disrespect in continuing to get to know her.

When I place myself in someone else's shoes, I try to show the utmost kindness and respect for other femme's feelings. I don't think that this means you can never date someone that dated someone you are acquainted with, but I do think that there should be some time that has passed before engaging in that way, out of respect for both parties feelings.

I can tell you, as a friend to another femme, if I knew that my friend was still in love with someone, or was still suffering emotionally over a butch, regardless of the length of time that had passed, it would never occur to me to date the person that she still felt so strongly about.

[Abigail Crabby]

Originally Posted by Prudence

---if you are in my circle of friends, I will not date your ex. To me that is like moving from sister to sister. In this life there are some things you just do not do. This is one of them.--------

My thoughts exactly and expressed so eloquently...