Open Letter: Dear Femme

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

i'm so glad that this has been brought up, i feel so *protective* of the lesbian community, (whenever i hear it bashed) tho i really don't ID as lesbian, simply stated i've got more in common with *her* than not.

(lately--post prop 8--i'm thinking more about aligning ourselves, vs. our few 'differences')

I absolutely think we need to align ourselves.

Perhaps the key is in not making the personal the general?

I have experienced shunning but to attach that to the general Lesbian Community is encompassing the masses in an event that involves only a few.

Am I not in turn BECOMING what I am angry about in doing so?

[blush]

Originally Posted by evolveme

AND... I have no trouble at all pointing out when it starts to read too much about them.

Right?

And if I were being brutally honest, all too frequently the support we are given is reflective of how we "stand by our men."

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

Boots, I want you to know that I am really, really glad you're here and listening AND participating.

On my first reading of your post, I was quietly pleased. I identified with Fru.

On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

Originally Posted by bonne-maman

e.... This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

shootdamn. now i want to have your frickin' babies

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by blush

Right?

And if I were being brutally honest, all too frequently the support we are given is reflective of how we "stand by our men."

And then not only is your identity made invisible, but your beliefs, opinions, arguments are invalidated for simply being in support of "the man."

As if there is no strength to your argument. As if your opinion was not informed by your own values.

"Little lady."
"Darlin'"

[apretty]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery)

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads.

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads.

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

I love you back and I love love love your post. Every. Single. Word.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by apretty

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery)

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime.

[T D]

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

[blush]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

I think that just as women encompass masculine traits, men emcompass feminine traits. That was my read on it.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

Originally Posted by Boots13

the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's that "friendly fire"

apropos terminology. i really like that. thank you for adding it to the bin i keep my brain in.

there's been talk here of duality that reaches into me right now and has for a while. i dislike the greater vs. lesser paradigms laid on some relationships, hetero/homo/trans/poly/inter sexual and so on ad nauseum. it deprives any supposed "weaker" partner of strength and capability as well as leeching the possibility for sensitivity from the so-called "stronger".

i'm also fixated on the "house divided" mentality of part of our community. i don't remember the exact wording of the saying. something about a house divided against itself not being able to stand. is some of our disapproval of one another due to an ingrained sort of self-hatred provided by a larger hetero-centric community at large? do we try to look and act like the "enemy" (not a literal reference, please don't send mail) so that we can both participate in the superiority mindset as well as fly under the radar. you know the drill: well at least i'm not like those people. i'm normal. no one would even know if it weren't for __________.

there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:

She's perpetually stuck in a time-warp between a neon bright high flashing eclipse and absolute invisibility. Can anyone see her?

She's here to remind the galaxy that it is possible to be more than one half of any duality, more than just nd extension, an opposite: male/female. Rational/emotional. Butch/femme. So, she's nobody's princess, baby doll, babe. Her ass is her own until she needs a good spanking. Even then, she's nobody's slut but the slut inside you.

Moving in waves - not steps - her posture is regal. Her shoulders are back, she wears the dress before the dress wears her. Or maybe not. Maybe she can't crawl out of bed some days, can't choose the proper costume. Quantum femme knows costumes and weapons are one in the same and she knows all too well the rolling pictures in some minds, of a buxom, tight-waisted milkmaid. Ready-made-to-order. You'd like to think she'll eat you for supper. Lick. Suck. Devour. Let you off the hook? In your dreams.

The truth is she can make you comfortable in your skin even when you shouldn't be, and she wears great pain. There's a reason you'll never see a quantum femme cry in public. Her acid rain tears would flood the planet, crate a burning wave, tsunami undertow that threatens to swallow everything...

So beware. Up close, microscopically, she might not be what you envision. She might shock with her unkempt reality...You can't label her neuroses, identify her predilections, or even predict what she would eat for breakfast. She's slippery, gliding through expectations like spilt mercury dancing down your leg, curdling and separating. She's been many people in many places but somehow always the same.

She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.

If you want to win her favor don't spread out across her mattress like you're waiting for a hot meal. Or preen publicly like a peacock then privately hide in her breasts, an ostrich burying your head in the sand. She's already somebody's mother, siser and wife. She's put in her volunteer hours and doated to charity. She doesn't want to demand that you make her come - she wants to dare you. Make her come so she can go away, leave herself with the pounding pounding of your hand, fist, anything inside her center. Let the vibrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrations on her clit stop time.

She's woman enough to give it up for you and astronomical enough to make each explosion feel new. She won't break or fall into pieces. She knows no singular force strong enough to reach her now...She doesn't crave picket fences, station wagons, or diamond rings. Her people are flawed beyond repair so she's had to learn to love and hate simultaneously. Don't be surprised by the company she keeps.

you've no idea how much i wish i'd said something this remarkable. (or how much i wish i felt the confidence of this quantum femme on at least a semi-weekly basis!)

while i was working the other day i saw a woman who epitomized these words and found myself wanting to follow her home and sit at her feet for the rest of my life, if only to understand what it was that she knew that i've never managed to comprehend completely.

so many lessons. so little room in the bin

[Bit]

Originally Posted by T D

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

That's a huge question, TD, and may take a long time to answer, if we can ever completely define it at all. For a start--a very oversimplified start--the general idea is that we have all been socialized to equate "male" with "best, most worthy" and "female" with "least, unworthy" and so we bring that into our interactions in everyday life and online both, equating Butch with male and therefore devaluing Femme. The trick is to understand when we are doing that, and why... sometimes when one or the other of us points it out, it's very hard on people who are not used to being analytical or who haven't taken women's studies classes, because they don't have the frame of reference they need to see it properly--they can often get offended and hurt by other people's attempts to explain. It can be hard to create a community culture that is understandable to everyone given our different backgrounds and educations.

[Bit]

There is SO MUCH to answer in this thread and I am already four pages behind; I hope y'all will be patient as I bring up posts from pages back.

About Butch participation in Femme threads? I prefer the support also---BUT please, let's keep this thread from turning into a flirt thread when the tension mounts? That has always annoyed me when it has happened to threads I was posting in and I hope we won't do it here.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime.

Originally Posted by evolveme

...On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

I stand corrected, and rightfully so. I was inadvertently dismissive when I described her quality as a streak...it isn't that transient (to be a streak) it's a quality borne of her life experiences and her assertiveness and the vision she has of her future. So starts my lesson.

Addressing a disconnect between "bitch and angel" (Blushes words!) ...I wish she was here so that we could kick this can around...I wonder if /when she feels that? Though I feel I would be speaking out of turn to comment on her feelings.
I cant wait til we talk tonight ...now I want to dig into this with her!

But pondering my "feeling safe" thing. This feeling is new for me. I trust her, with my heart and I trust her with our future, one that we are building together...and from this trust comes a feeling of safety. Who she is (separate and independent from the "us" that we are creating) is where the trust started. Her values, her code, her strengths, her armor, her fierceness, her assertiveness, her charm, her manners, her emotions. She is not just one of these, but an ever shifting culmination of these qualities and more.

This thread has my head spinning...

I am engrossed in the different discussions going on here, and thrilled with the information and personal opinion that is being presented.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by TeaPartyTart

I've changed over the past 10 or so years I've identified as Femme. I used to believe it was all about my power and in hindsight my power looked more like King Kong stomping on legitimate thoughts, opinions and questions of those that may have differed from mine. My power was to 'squash' not only the opinion, but to take a deeper stance and make a stronger impact on the person to ensure they didn't continue to hold opinions that aligned with the ones they shared.

While I haven't seen this in your posts, TPT--maybe because you were already changing by the time we started interacting?--I have experienced it from others. I call it "gatekeeping" behavior. People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

Originally Posted by TeaPartyTart

For me, my Femme strength is about focusing on how to get to what I truly want and believe in without hurting people or countering opinions along the way.

I like this. It's pretty much how I try to handle things as well; I will speak about my opinions, I will stand up for people who seem to need it, but I don't need to argue nor do I need to "defeat" anyone. Other people's opinions cannot change the truth of my life, of my being.... and I do not have the right to try to change the truth of their lives, no matter how wrong I think they might be. It was a hard path learning these lessons. Thank you for a chance to reflect on them again.

Originally Posted by Diva

I never felt more invisible or silenced than I felt around my father, whose favorite word for me was "Shhhh!". That's probably a whole 'nother' thread.....

And then I never felt more liberated than (1) when I came out (after 15 years of marriage to the father of my beautiful daughters) and (2) when my father died. (I know that sounds horrible.)

I don't think it's horrible and I don't think it's a whole nuther thread, either.... I think it speaks to deep lifelong conditioning as a female, which certainly impacts anyone as a Femme, especially as she tries to find her voice in adulthood. I had the same kind of conditioning from my mother... she didn't have to die for me to break at least partially free, but I DID have to invoke the Geographical Cure and move halfway across the country, yanno?

Originally Posted by June

[Joke stereotype threads] This is problematic for me, and I've talked about this before: I think sometimes these online Forums, or communities, if you will are the first step in figuring out who/what you are and what your Primary Desires might be, so it's irksome (Really pisses me off) to think that a questioning Femme might stumble across one of those threads and feel intimidated because they in fact don't leave the house in stiletto's and a full face of Mac everyday and in fact, they DO know how to build/maintain/create shit.

I was one of those newbies, but I do have to say that it was the SERIOUS threads which did me more damage than the joke threads, even though both played a role. I'm really glad that the serious "how to be a Femme" threads have all long since fallen by the wayside.

Originally Posted by June

In June's dream world, which is very different from the Barbie variety, what they will find is a full spectrum of Femme-ness (c) that includes all of us regardless of our skill level or presentation. I want to say to them "Hey, Baby Femme! Wear that damn baseball hat backwards if you want! Don't be afraid to change that tire and brag about it! Fix that friggin' sink! Win at Pool because you've got the Mad Skillz!"

And finally: "Even if you don't have a Butch or Transman to hang on your every word, you're still a Femme. You don't have to wait for anyone to validate who you are."

I. Love. Your. Dream. World.

Amazingly enough, mine looks just like it!

I have to go offline--a friend just called to say she's bringing over a piece of furniture she doesn't need anymore!! Wooohooo! Storage!--so I'll talk to y'all later.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Great post e.

I have found life to have gone down an interesting path since I fell in love with a trans person. People keep trying to relegate me to being a piece of furniture (soffa) and insisting that my label must change. I MUST be straight, look at who I love.

The thing is: I am the same me I have always been.

Hunter
Gatherer
Mother Bear
Sister
Daughter
Friend
Lover
Worker Bee
Busy Bee
Lover of my feminine

I have fought to be seen. To be heard. Without being on the arm of a butch or a trans guy. Suddenly I am again unseen. For who *I* am.

I will not stop fighting to be seen. I will not change the essence of *Me* because of who the Universe sent me to love.

I will keep speaking out. Figuring out. Opening my mind and heart but not changing the core.

I do not exist as a 50%. I am not a half of something.

I am 100%. Me.

1 + ! = 2 and so forth and so on into infinity.

Bravo to this post, but I don't understand how femmes are relagated or unseen in any manner. At this sir's house they are the most beautiful, prominent, powerful creatures on earth. Maybe someday, one might love me. I wonder what that would feel like. Empowerment? It certainly doesn't come from my masculinity.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Jet --

Read us and listen to us all the way through, and you will have a much better understanding, I promise. So many voices in this thread already and I'm even behind. Remember, you are welcome to participate and comment here, but a blanket "I don't understand" followed by how things are in your house is not indicative that you're fully listening yet. I will leave it to SuperFemme to reply to you or not. Perhaps the thread OP, evolveme may do so as well.

--June

Sorry if I mis-spoke or didn't perceive right. I caught "relegated" and "unseen" in perusing this fast. I'll sit back now. Thanks, June