OSAMA BINLADEN IS DEAD

[Julie]

$4.14 cents here this morning.
Imagine that.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.

I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.

This is so well said, thank you.

I don't think celebrations should be taking place. I think it puts people in danger to do so. It is disrespectful and can only incite more those who already hate Westerners.

I pray for our troops and anyone who may be in harms way.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am glad to be American. I am so very proud of our military soldiers! God bless each and every one of them!

I fear retaliation. Who knows what is next.

[Martina]

i feel like it was better to have done it than not although i do not know why Obama ordered kill and not capture. In any case, i am certainly not jubilant.

What i think is important to remember is all of the movements in North Africa and the Middle East to throw off tyranny. Those young people are, for the most part, calling for democracy. Many are more religious than their rulers, but the majority are not calling for theocracy. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example, did not organize the Egyptian uprising. Anyway i think it's important to remember that the region is not the place we imagined it to be after 911.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.

I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.

Latest briefing is that he was buried at sea, in accordance with Islamic protocols. To have his body won't deter conspiracy theorists, they started the moment the news hit the air. So those who want to see him martyred won't have a place to do so, thankfully, but it isn't going to make us any safer. The head is cut off now they can eat at each other for control of the scrapes. Our soldiers are no closer to coming home, there is a corrupt government in Afghanistan, and until that is fixed our men and women have work to do. Am I glad he's dead, you bet, am I doing a jig, nope, I am however going to remain vigilant.
As far as one of his wives throwing herself in the way of a bullet, or if she was used as a shield, it's still speculation, as a debriefing of those who were there hasn't been fully done.

[Novelafemme]

The Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over for trial both before and after September 11, 2001. Instead our government opted for years of bloody warfare. And in the end, it was police action (investigation, a raid, and a summary execution) and not the warfare, that reportedly tracked bin Laden down in Pakistan. After capturing him, our government's representatives did not hold him for trial. They killed him and carried away his dead body.

Killing will lead only to more killing. There will be no review of bin Laden's alleged crimes, as a trial would have provided. There will be no review of earlier US support for bin Laden. There will be no review of US failures to prevent the September 11th attacks. Instead, there will be bitterness, hatred, and more violence, with the message being communicated to all sides that might makes right and murder is the way in which someone is, in President Obama's words, brought to justice.

Nothing is actually resolved, nothing concluded, and nothing to be celebrated in taking away life. If we want something to celebrate here, we should celebrate the end of one of the pieces of war propaganda that has driven the past decade of brutality and death. But I'm not going to celebrate that until appropriate actions follow. Nothing makes for peace like ceasing to wage war. Now would be an ideal time to give that a try.

[Corkey]

I'm sorry were you there? Do you know if he had a weapon in his hands? Do you have some sort relationship that got you into the room where orders are given? If he were alive and kicking a trial would have happened, but bringing his body anywhere would have given his supporters a place to worship his sorry ass. His body was given an Islamic burial, so be it. That is all we as humane people can ask. I really have an issue with people who have no military experience speculating about what happens in a black op.

[Scorp]

I can understand how folks are feeling about this all around.

My concern is that there will be more harm in the way for the USA just because that "devil" was finally killed. And quite honestly, there will never be peace in the world. We can only wish and make it as peaceful for ourselves that we can no matter how we choose, and not to live in fear.

This monster has caused so much misery and heartache for folks. And, personally I don't think it's over. I strongly believe there is other harm coming our way whether this monster was dead or alive. When a devious mind does such unmentionable things they continue doing so with having other people appointed to follow out what they call "their mission".

I will NEVER stop looking over my shoulder and no, I'm not saying to "stop living" and be in fear forever. What I'm saying is to be alert at all times no matter what. I'm sure there will always be an overall threat.

I feel for the families, friends, co-workers, etc. of the 9/11 victims and other innocent victims all over the world. I'm sure this brings back all the horrible memories for all on 9/11 and the other tragedies in other countries on those various days. To have to relive this all over again with all of those innocent people who had to die so tragically. I pray all loved ones continue to find strength and go on.

This devil has to answer to someone/something greater and bigger and I'm a firm believer that he will pay the price in the afterworld.

Lastly, I pray and wish for all the troops that they be safe and are able to come home sooner than expected.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Gas is @ 3.93 here, his death increased prices overnight by 10 cents. Bleah!

It is around $4.59 for regular in these parts. But look to Wall Street speculators and OPEC. Calls for use of our reserves could drop it almost a dollar a gallon. I say do it! And I do not believe that gas prices are related to this at all or what is going on in Libya. All oil worldwide is on the OPEC exchange system- look at how that is run1

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm sorry were you there? Do you know if he had a weapon in his hands? Do you have some sort relationship that got you into the room where orders are given? If he were alive and kicking a trial would have happened, but bringing his body anywhere would have given his supporters a place to worship his sorry ass. His body was given an Islamic burial, so be it. That is all we as humane people can ask. I really have an issue with people who have no military experience speculating about what happens in a black op.

Are you addressing me, Corkey? Because if you are then I take issue with your vast assumptions regarding my knowledge/non-information of ANY situation, military or not. Please refrain from sarcastically attacking my right to speak my mind, my beliefs and my intelligence. Thank you.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

Are you addressing me, Corkey? Because if you are then I take issue with your vast assumptions regarding my knowledge/non-information of ANY situation, military or not. Please refrain from sarcastically attacking my right to speak my mind, my beliefs and my intelligence. Thank you.

Tell ya' what I'll assume you don't have ANY military experience, I'll also assume you weren't at the White House situation room, I'll also thank you not to assume I was being sarcastic, I wasn't nor am I now. I have said nothing of your intelligence, your beliefs or your right of free speech, only your assumptions.
Have a good day.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Tell ya' what I'll assume you don't have ANY military experience, I'll also assume you weren't at the White House situation room, I'll also thank you not to assume I was being sarcastic, I wasn't nor am I now. I have said nothing of your intelligence, your beliefs or your right of free speech, only your assumptions.
Have a good day.

And we all know what assuming anything achieves.

Our killing of Saddam Hussein has been followed by years of war and hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths. Our attempts to kill Muammar Gadaffi have killed his children and grandchildren and will end no war if they eventually succeed. Our attempts to kill Osama bin Laden, including wars justified by that mission, have involved nearly a decade of senseless slaughter in Afghanistan and the rest of the ongoing global "generational" war that is consuming our nation.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Nat;331674]I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.
I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.[/QUOTE]


I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) around me that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious. Talk to people that have had young people in their families fall prey to what Bin Laden and his followers have been doing for years worldwide. There are far more Muslim deaths under his belt.

I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions and customs to!

I am not feeling jubilant about this- I still feel rather numb. But, I am a bit embarrassed by some of the conspiracy theories floating around. The facts are not out yet and there will be mountains of research done from every perspective. Yet, many jump to conclusions long before the facts are out. Many of which never engage in anything other than complaining.

Sometimes I really wish that youth in the US had to do at least a year of some kind of foreign service before entering college or a trade school. Not necessarily military- Peace Corp, vista, red cross, any number of organizations. There should be a system to support all to be able to do this as many do work early to help support their family (but not in our middle class). Go see the world and how other people really live and experience other forms of government. Then, criticize the US with some knowledge outside of your own little world. I can’t relate how many times I hear how spoiled and self-centered kids are in the eyes of middle eastern immigrant families I know. How disrespectful and aimless these people think our kids are. Sometimes, I have to agree.

I have issues with our governmental actions. I certainly have many about our standing with Muslim nations. Yet, to be honest, I see our educational system failing our kids in world affairs and international understanding as well as science and technology. I see far too many kids here without any sense of family honor being instilled in them or responsibility. Maybe it is my age and ethnic background, but how can we build better relations internationally when most of our kids haven’t knowledge of world history or even US history? Let alone an understanding of world religions and cultural differences. And at home, what do we model? “Oh, don’t worry, if you mess up, Mom & Dad will fix it. You don’t need to take responsibility for your actions, let everyone else pay for your mistakes.”

There may very well be some suspicious situations in this. But, I would like to see the varied accounts and the back up sources before making any judgments.

[Nat]

I have seen here and elsewhere the assertion that "we" killed Saddam Hussein, but I believe legally he was in the custody of the Iraqi government during his trial and execution.

I guess whether or not the Iraqi government can be considered part of "we" depends on how sovereign the Iraqi government was considered at the time.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Ok, so he's dead. There might be some sense of accomplishment or feeling that the bogeyman is dead but that's all he was, a bogeyman.

The islamist extremist / jihadist threat was always and has always been much more than about Bin Laden even if sometimes the western media have personified the threat through Bin Laden. By all accounts, Bin Laden had limited practical leadership for most of the last decade and, in any event, there are thousands ready and willing to take his place.

I'd celebrate if a war was won or terrorism was defeated. However, that's not the case. No celebrations from my (admittedly non-American) perspective.

Agreed, and I think until the US, to a significant degree, pulls its troops out of the Middle East and stops influencing the oil market there, we will have to deal with terrorism from that area. People don't often realize that this isn't a war about religion. It's about US presence and interference in sovereign nations and economic Imperialism. At least that is how it all got started. The wars we have waged there have costs countless lives, which just ingrain the hatred of many people in that region.

[Random]

I neither morn, nor rejoice at his dead.

It was something that simply had to be done.

Why?

Because our goverment said that we would find him and we would kill him.

Once Bush said those words, then it was a done deal.
You can't lose face... Not on that level.

Once those towers fell, The goverment had to show the world that the USA is the biggest, baddest dog on the block.

They had to show the world, that this country would bankrupt it's self, would send thousands of our people to die and spill the blood of anyone that got in our way.

The USA had to strike back harder than we were stricken.

This was not about bringing anyone to justice, getting rid of a monster, making the world a better place....

This was vengence and revenge.

Do I agreee with it?

No.. Hate breeds hate, war breeds war, and no one ever really wins.

There will be retibution, of course there will be, neither sides can afford to be seen as weak.

There is no end to it... not really... War is the human condition

[Martina]

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...068931,00.html

[Martina]

Let me tell you about one of America's young people, none of whom i am disappointed in.

Jesus is now 23, i guess. He is married and expecting a child. He is married to his high school sweetheart. He grew up in one of the most violent and gang-ridden neighborhoods in Northern California. He was a drug dealer, a fairly successful one for his age. He decided that he wasn't going to survive in that life, and he didn't want to die. He loved his girlfriend (now his wife), and didn't want her to lose him. So he enlisted. He was sent to Iraq. While he was there, he completed an online undergraduate degree from a respected university. He saved all the college money that the military owed him and paid for it himself. He also saved from his pay and bonuses. He is home and ready to enter a Master's Program with enough savings to pay for it without dipping into his military college money, which is 55K. He can pass that money on to his child, which is his plan.

The rest of the story is the five stars Jesus has tatooed in his arm. They represent the five people he had to kill to stay alive in Iraq. Two of them are children. Jesus looks at those stars every day and lives with the deaths on his soul -- his words. So he got out of a life of crime and poverty. The military helped him, but look at the price he had to pay. He is OK. He is healthy and bright and driven. And he does not deny what he did. He lives with it. He is a good human being. These are our youth. These are the people who represent us overseas. i, for one, am extremely proud of them.

[Nat]

Hi AtLast -

I wanted to address a few of your points (I would address more fully, but I am at work and at the mercy of time and my iphone).

"I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious."

GW is seen by many as a war criminal, and many people could say he is not a "true" Christian, but if his body were dumped in the ocean without a funeral, I'm pretty sure many people (Christian or not) would be upset about it.

However, this issue is somewhat moot since it has been reported that he did receive a proper send-off. I still think it was a weird decision to dump his body in the ocean. I didn't even know it was legal to dump a body in the ocean as a means of burial.

"I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!"

This sort of tit-for-tat logic could justify anything - no matter how horrific. I'm going to hold with the belief that any number of wrongs don't make a right.

[Corkey]

While I'm not pumping my chest in the USA chanting going on in some areas, I do think that justice for 3000+ people of all races who were senselessly killed by a mad man on 9/11 has been done. He's dead and the killing will go on, because that's what humans do if they don't like the way one looks, or if they don't agree with another religion, or for oil.
I'm not going to sit here and have the men and women who serve this country besmirched for their service, sacrifices, and their lives. No one knows better than one who has served just what they are going through. It is up to the citizenry of this country to let their leaders know that the men and women of this country who come home in body bags, in pieces, missing arms, legs, brains, have given enough. The wars will not stop just because one mad man is dead, there are plenty more where he came from.