Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Just_G

So if everyone quit supporting wherever criminals that have served time worked, there would be a LOT of people at that same place of employment that would feel the impact. Not just the one that was hired. (who could really have turned their life around after serving their time) So I am not one to say I will NEVER support a business that has hired someone because of their record or what they did....others are impacted by that.

What people don't realize is that there are people like Michael Vick working in places we shop and support on a daily basis....how can you pick and choose where to spend your money? You can't ask for EVERYONE'S criminal record and then decide not to shop there.

When 9/11 happened, MY family business was affected because of the terrorists. The ignorance of people never fails to amaze me. We sell oriental rugs from India....a peaceful country that had NOTHING to do with what happened that day. But, people decided not to support OUR business because we sold a product that "the terrorists made and our money would be going to support more terrorism." That affected MY livelihood...still does to this day.

I believe in the good of people and hope that he learned something from his stint in Leavenworth. I still watch the NFL, even if they did let him play again. I even watched the Eagles get their asses kicked last night. No harm, no foul in my opinion. If by chance he gets another dog, I am sure there will be so many eyes on him it won't even be funny! Hopefully he has changed and become a better person through all of this. It will haunt him for the rest of his life, no matter how many good things he does or tries to do. He has a life sentence in THAT alone.

Just my little opinion on this topic....

I'm not saying that I wouldn't support ANY business that hired ANYBODY who had a criminal record. I'm saying that this man - in what I have seen of HIS public statements, does not yet "get it". He doesn't get that animals are beings that have every right to a peaceful existance, without suffering beyond words at the hands of people like him and his cohorts.

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes. I don't use the same paint brush for everyone - I don't boycott every man who has a criminal record. But I'd be willing to make an exception for the likes of Mr. Vick.

[BullDog]

Suebee, unfortunately there are quite a few football players playing in the NFL today who have beaten up their wives, girlfriends, or women they have met somewhere. Some have been suspended by the league for certain periods of time and some have not.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

But then we'd have to have the discussion about how Fame/Professional Sports/The Music Industry supports behavior in men that it would never support in women (and then inherent ingrained sexism as the root of it all)

[RockOn]

Hey Gang, you people are really rocking in here. Maybe tonight or over the holiday I can get time to come and read everyone's contributions and opinions. Hope so. I have not had much time to be online lately.

Lunch hours go by too quickly ... back to work now and you later.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Suebee, unfortunately there are quite a few football players playing in the NFL today who have beaten up their wives, girlfriends, or women they have met somewhere. Some have been suspended by the league for certain periods of time and some have not.

Absolutely. I'm not trying to negate the impact spousal abuse has. I'm just talking about Vick right now.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by suebee

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes. I don't use the same paint brush for everyone - I don't boycott every man who has a criminal record. But I'd be willing to make an exception for the likes of Mr. Vick.

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.

We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

[betenoire]

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

[Tucker]

http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.p...the-vick-dogs/

[The_Lady_Snow]

The system gives children back to abusive parents or households back, I have to ask why an animal has priority over our countries kids. You can see a child be slapped at a Target- that happens at Pet Smart the cops are called & your dog is taken away.

I pray he changed but this witch hunt on a black man and now death is wished upon him is just as gross if not even MORE gross than what he's done.


Why?

It's been done in this country since it's start.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by suebee

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes.

Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.

Originally Posted by JustJo

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

For fucking real.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Suebee...I get what you're saying, but I really don't think we can compare humans and animals...I really don't.

We employ horrible, barbaric acts against animals in the process of raising them and slaughtering them for meat...and it isn't even considered a crime.

We feel differently (as a culture) about dogs than we do about cows or turkeys or pigs...so we criminalize those acts. And, no, I'm not objecting to that...I think those acts are rightly classified as criminal.

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

The rape of a woman, to me, is infinitely more serious than the forced breeding of an animal...as horrible as that may be.

Just making a comparison Jo. It's obvious we as a species are going to be more affected by what happens to our own. However it doesn't in any way make what happened right. Though most of us - to take June's example at the beginning of the thread - would most certainly save our child before we saved an animal if we could only do one - some of us believe that animals have every right to be protected from harm. Laws may be made by man for man, but animals should have the same RIGHT to protection as we do. If we are such an evolved species we should be able to care about and for more than just our own.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

I get that.

But I don't find it strange.

It was a biggo Headline Media deal ~ hence a thread was birthed.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by betenoire

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

I can get behind this thought process to a large degree!

I agree that there is a somewhat pervasive "right now" groove to animal rights, PETA, The Trevor Project, Barefoot running shoes, etc. among young hipster-type Queers. The thinking that to "be" the right kind of Queer or to attract the "right" kind of Queer, that those things are prerequisite.

I used to have a friend who viewed herself as a staunch animal rights advocate and who was vegetarian but wore leather shoes every day, owned a ton of leather furniture, had a purebred dog that she bought from a puppy mill, and loved going to the zoo.

It seemed like she was an animal advocate only to the degree that it wouldn't affect her tastes, comfort, or entertainment value.

This isn't an either/or issue, but rather multi-layered. I see some intersections of race and class with Eurocentric idealization of pet animals. Interesting discussion to say the least.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by betenoire

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

Bete...

Actually - While I was not directing it at you... You were the perfect response.

YES I cannot agree more with you. It is COOL to be all of the above. I do believe people jump on the band wagon for a variety of reasons. Acceptance or whatever! I am glad they do. I do not really care if they are doing it because it is the thing to do or not. I just want results.

I do know how you love animals... And I absolutely KNOW you DO NOT support any of this.

It's not that different than the surge of lesbianism (lol love that word). It's cool!

Sadly, something else will come up - Vick will be out of the spotlight and something new will come up. It is how our world works - but for now... I am glad this is in the spotlight. Maybe this will force our law enforcement (in this fucking country) to close more of these rings down.

[BullDog]

I think it's a multi-layered discussion too, that's why I don't see why I am supposed to go start a separate thread.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

It was a biggo Headline Media deal ~ hence a thread was birthed.

The fact that the Vick thing got tonnes of media attention and the other crimes of NFL players didn't is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anyway! You kids have fun! I gotta get offline because I'm ignoring my spouse and playing on BFP which is impolite of me.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

The fact that the Vick thing got tonnes of media attention and the other crimes of NFL players didn't is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anyway! You kids have fun! I gotta get offline because I'm ignoring my spouse and playing on BFP which is impolite of me.

Bingo!

I didn't see lots of uproar over Ben Roethlisberger (except people were bummed he was going to miss 6 games- which got cut down to 4 games for "good behavior").

[suebee]

[QUOTE=betenoire;255473]Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.
QUOTE]


I don't know that we're more important than animals. I know we're more important to US than animals are. And I mean that seriously. (but that's a whole 'nother discussion) My point is that a man who systematically abused women to the extent that Vick and others have and continue to systematically abuse animals would not so easily slip back into the stature of hero. This is NOT a man who kicked his dog because it peed on the carpet! As if his actions weren't horrendous enough, he's done this to HUNDREDS of animals! Isn't that serious enough?

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by betenoire

The fact that the Vick thing got tonnes of media attention and the other crimes of NFL players didn't is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anyway! You kids have fun! I gotta get offline because I'm ignoring my spouse and playing on BFP which is impolite of me.

I already said...I get that.

Thanks for taking a snip of my quote though.
Makes me feel special.


My simple point was,
a thread was spawned because Obama was involved.

Anyways, my Original response in this thread focused on Forgiveness.
I should have left it at that.



Over n Out

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by suebee

Just making a comparison Jo. It's obvious we as a species are going to be more affected by what happens to our own. However it doesn't in any way make what happened right. Though most of us - to take June's example at the beginning of the thread - would most certainly save our child before we saved an animal if we could only do one - some of us believe that animals have every right to be protected from harm. Laws may be made by man for man, but animals should have the same RIGHT to protection as we do. If we are such an evolved species we should be able to care about and for more than just our own.

I get that Suebee...and I'm not trying to pick on you by any means. I totally agree that what Vick did was barbaric, and criminal, and should be punished.

I've got a couple things going on in my head about this thread though....

First, Vick was convicted and punished. We may or may not agree with the judge's decision...but that's a separate issue. I do believe that once people have served their sentence, then they need to be given an opportunity to rebuild their lives and not be stigmatized forever.

Second, I tend to stay out of race discussions here because...as a white person...I get that I don't get the reality of what it's like to be a person of color in our (or any) society. However, I totally get that we lock up POC in this society at a disgusting rate....and that white (men usually) who are convicted of far worse acts get a slap on the wrist or a fine. So, our tendency to label ex-convicts as somehow "less than" the rest of us impacts POC far more than it does whites as a group.

Third, I do love animals....and I have a houseful of them at any given time. However, I've also been involved in the raising of animals for food most of my life....having lived and worked on a dairy, raised beef cattle (in Australia not the US), had an ex who worked in a slaughterhouse, etc. I truly think we need to extend our protection and humane treatment to all animals....and think that dogs get an inordinate amount of our attention while cattle and poultry and pigs are treated in a pretty horrific manner. (And, no, I'm not vegetarian or vegan and don't object to raising and slaughtering animals for food....but do believe that we can be at least humane in the process).

And fourth, I'm with Snow. I put children before animals...every time. I'm astounded at a culture that defends animals and ignores the needs of children (and we do).