It Hurts Me.

[Viola]

Hello Apocalipstic and Firedance,

Maybe I need to clarifications many times - from other message I wrote,

Please don't take my messages as facts, its only me sensing tones and growing myself...

Also I'm thinking more...

Ok, perhaps even cycling...

Firedance you wanted to be seen and approach by butches...

Apocalipstic you wanted your butch date to approach you in space you two share through connection share and not abandonment, text felt like abandonment.

Actually oh and please forgive me if I don't accurately describe your situation please use interpretation ok if needed...

Perhaps what I was sensing is language needs also dance, and is it including spirit soul in dance vs shallow...

Firedance your language is valid: you wanting to be seen and approach, and you were emotional when butches spoken their language, reversing approach.

so I didn't want to sound I was dismissing your language needs. Maybe it sounded this way as I was describing the tone of dance.

Its that some times we focus more on human worship through perfecting laws that then denies the spirit soul, and a dance can inter human worship through perfecting through shallow exchange.

so maybe I'm cycling here,

Apocalipstic please I hope not to dismiss your language of needs,

which I was sharing in another message about tones of shallow dance that dismiss spirit soul when I was responding to message in relations of butches demanding femme to approach them for once...

Actually in this tone I sense a shallow dance, not really sure if the butches were speaking of their language of needs but more speaking of being fed up...

that's another area of writing is when we're unbalance and how that effects our projection outwardly that even language of needs aren't even clear, but its more a shallow of greed a dance of shallow of blind toward pleasures empty pride follows condemnation death. or another word depart from each other, through the death of pride from the growth of condemnation...

two things I think I'm speaking about with tones, and now add third which is unbalance that effects projection that can confuse language needs even to self...

One is about dance and is it shallow or includes the spirit soul,

the other is languages and to learn your own need language and to able read other need languages so then can sense either practice or natural.

and now is the third tone: about butches wants femme to approach is that from their unbalance unclear language that they don't even know they're own language of needs that then led to their being fed up, I'm referring to message that firedance wrote and how the butches were towards her...

and or if butches wants femmes to approach them, if this is their language need then express it to a femme who wants to approach butches, I'm sure this can happen and a dance of spirit soul however in clear need language that harmoney ...

So I think what's going on is articulating more then one tones...

To clarify...

Tone one: does the dance include spirit soul or is the dance shallow?

Tone two: Femme Butch is the need language natural or a form of practice work

Tone three: how does the unbalance project their unclear language of needs that's not clear to themselves that led them to feel fed up.

[Corkey]

Elderly poll workers trippin' all over the gender markers. Unknowingly one got it right and the other, who was trying to steer the mine field back to female got it wrong. It happens, but they are old and not necessarily the ones who will ever "get it".
Just an experience from todays adventures in voting.

[Jess]

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat...

[~ocean]

A gents manners always seducers the fact shes being noticed as a woman.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I could have used a better word in my post. lol.

Just trying to say all Femmes are people and people are different and we each have our own list of what is "good manners" to us and we can't just expect all Butches to know what we want and need.

Ha, I used to expect a certain level of behavior, now I see it is not fair to have those expectations without sharing what those expectations are.

It's not a Butch/Femme thing. It's a how I need to be treated thing. What to me, is treating me with respect.

What is good manners in Upstate New York, for example is wayyyy different than what is considered good manners in Nashville.

Are you saying that us Upstate New Yorkers have undesirable manners Apocalipstic?

[Toughy]

I have not seen anyone bash manners in this thread. I haven't even run across folks who bash manners outside this website. The opposite is what I see and hear.

No one is imposing anything on anyone except for those who use those terms in reference to someone without their permission.

[AtLast]

This is so wrong. And it makes this butch angry too.

[Viola]

I've been thinking more, actually any rules with butch femme is scaring me, cause I've never thought about this before...

All that enter my mind is drawn towards butches and that's it...

Forget rules, who cares... I'm into freedom of thought.

so I'm not going to abide by any rules, I'm just going to be me...

who cares who approach who first or second,

if I want to approach I will and or if a butch wants to approach be my guest,

I've really put a lot of thought into this, thread and still am - not sure why.

Um, I never ever been to this type of place that you describe, I've never been to a femme butch hang out offline before.

but still, I'm to the point of saying, I'm me and who cares about rules.

I'm me.

[macele]

i'm sure it can work both ways. a butch can be offensive with words, and a femme can also. a femme can ask a butch do something that has been generated from the hetero female brain.

if i seem defensive, maybe i am a little lol. i just don't think this is a butch problem. but rather a person problem. and i personally am not fond of looking to other people to guide me/correct me in regards to behaviour. if i am in need of someone to tell me how to act, i have person problem issues lol.

all is understood that it is needed to tell someone if they say things that are offensive. indeed. and that's what makes a good topic, ... learning.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Female bodied does NOT equate to "Lady" don't matter if you're in Mississippi or New York its NOT ok to impose sugary words on them (female bodied folk)

Not everyone is a:

"little lady"

"missy"

"sweetie"

"honey pie"

Familiars are not something that we should have to endure to be seen "as proper folk"

This isn't the 1800's

Agree...

...so are saying it's not proper to pick someone up for a date on a horse? I may take issue with this. She gets good gas mileage...

[Apocalipstic]

I see I've been quoted, I am busy as heck at work but will be back in as soon as I get some stuff done.

Loving the discussion!

Desd, different!!! lol. Very very very different.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Scuba

Agree...

...so are saying it's not proper to pick someone up for a date on a horse? I may take issue with this. She gets good gas mileage...

Maybe make sure date is not allergic to said horse.

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by Jess

Y'all can excuse me or decide to discharge me now, but I am one of those Southerners who do use the familiars allowed me by the gracious women in my life, such as but not limited to: Darlin, Hon, Sugah, Sweetheart, Dearest, etc. AND by all means, when I do say, "you ladies, or "dear lady" I mean it from the deepest sense of respect, as "those" ladies have shown me that they are, indeed, Ladies.

I am only speaking for myself when I say that I am more than a little tired of hearing the ongoing bashing of manners and mannerisms that seem to be all but lost in today's society, save living alive and and well in the hearts of well intended Southern folk and moreover, country folk . It does my heart good to put a smile on a "lady's" face by addressing her as Miss__________ and tipping my hat. More often than not, I am met with a gracious smile or a soft blush and I very VERY much am pleased to have spent one ample millisecond of my energy adding a smidge of charm to an otherwise unextraordinary , uneventful day.

If a woman does not wish to be referred to as Lady, or any other familiars, it becomes very clear within about 13 seconds. I will forevermore, refrain from doing so. However, I don't think that woman should get to speak for any other women who actually find it endearing. That to me, is what makes a Lady a Lady. It is her ability to discern for herself and NOT impose upon others.


My 2 cents for what it's worth.

Ladies.. Gents.. Folks.. tips hat...

I realize the South has a lot of issues... everywhere does. And I realize that some Southern Manners are actually quite rude (eg, "Well, bless your heart"). I know that if you study history they are probably somehow rooted in oppression. If you're honest, most social graces are.

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them. So perhaps that's where the disconnect is in this conversation. Jess refers to calling women he knows Miss, not strangers on the street. Unless I'm mistaken.

[thedivahrrrself]

Originally Posted by macele

i'm sure it can work both ways. a butch can be offensive with words, and a femme can also. a femme can ask a butch do something that has been generated from the hetero female brain.

if i seem defensive, maybe i am a little lol. i just don't think this is a butch problem. but rather a person problem. and i personally am not fond of looking to other people to guide me/correct me in regards to behaviour. if i am in need of someone to tell me how to act, i have person problem issues lol.

all is understood that it is needed to tell someone if they say things that are offensive. indeed. and that's what makes a good topic, ... learning.

And you're right as well. I've been asked more times by straight males to use my cleavage to get something than by butches. But you know who the worst culprits are? Straight women. They are often oblivious to their own oppression....

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm curious where in this thread has ANYONE "bashed" manners?

I'm going to re read it again to find where people participating have done this...


ETA- consentual familiars are simply that. Consentual, "I" was referring to those who don't have that clear consent that do impose familiars on female bodied folk (figured I needed to clarify)

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself

I realize the South has a lot of issues... everywhere does. And I realize that some Southern Manners are actually quite rude (eg, "Well, bless your heart"). I know that if you study history they are probably somehow rooted in oppression. If you're honest, most social graces are.

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them. So perhaps that's where the disconnect is in this conversation. Jess refers to calling women he knows Miss, not strangers on the street. Unless I'm mistaken.

IMO, it is logical to realize the way we are brought up in our own culture/area in many ways "shapes" how we communicate with others. Or actually, it is our base line. A base line to grow from, a base line to evolve from and hopefully always in the right directions. The South, just like all other parts of the world, have traditions of language. Manners were not born here and they are no better down here than anywhere else IMO.

My family have always used the...baby, honey, sweethearts. I did too, for awhile. Years ago, when i entered into the professional world, i realized this is not always a good way to address someone and have learned to stop using those cultural "terms of endearment". Or i should say i try. Because i do slip and if i know you and know you well, i will be more relaxed in letting those slip even more often. But, i do also realize they should not be used for all people we meet, so at least i can say, progress has been made.

Yesterday we had an electrician come over to fix some things. While on the phone with him, he said to me...."Is it Mrs. or Ms. or should i just say Missy" and he laughed. That felt really bad to me. It even felt icky. I replied back "None of the above, my name is Niki". Thankfully, he did escape me handing his balls to him on a platter by respecting the way i wanted to be addressed.

A lot of things in life we do out of habit and again it is crossed and combined with how we were raised. Hopefully, we do evolve however and it is wise, IMO, to try and grow to more of generic or universal way of language. It is a process. But, like i've said many times, change is usually a good thing.

[macele]

i used to dislike words such as honey, baby, sweetie, ect. ... even from someone that i knew intimately. but as i've gotten older, i deal with it differently. those who have formed a habit, say with the word honey, and it seems to come with every other sentence spoken, ... that's a dislike for me. and some people think the word baby will get them something they want. i've never gave more if the word baby was thrown in (well not exactly true lol). but i like to feel that comfort from someone that seems to genuinely use words to love. if a child needs attention, and a woman says, "aww sweetie, i'm sorry.", ... and she seems to genuinely care, ... i like that. i loved it as a child when momma would say bless your heart, because i knew she meant it. it wasn't said for no reason. i catch myself saying some of these words, but i say them to share comfort/understanding. i would not say if i didn't mean it. and i don't say to just anyone. i do say, but rare.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by thedivahrrrself

<snip>

But, I DO find it endearing. And I'm also a bit tired of the bashing of manners. (If you can't find enough examples here, see the Old Fashioned thread.) I'm not saying everyone has to use them, but they get you some definite brownie points with me!

I use my manners for everyone. I will hold a door open for any person behind me. I forget sometimes to let the butches that like to open doors do it. And I appreciate a butch who does the same. If your manners are only for me, they're not worth much.

Let me amend this a bit: I hate it when someone calls me some pet name if I don't know them.

<snip>

I'm going to believe what you find endearing is manners, because you also say pet names (sugar, honey, sweetheart, etc) from folks you don't know is not acceptable. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Where is there bashing of manners in the 'Old Fashioned' thread? Reminding people that it's the 21st century is not bashing manners. I would love a post number to prove your statement. You could do it in the 'Old Fashioned' thread since we are not supposed to cross post from other threads

Where are manners being bashed in this thread? I'm serious.....please give us the post number so we can see it.

Calling people honey baby sweetie sugar pie is not about manners. It's about overstepping the boundaries of being polite and well-mannered. If you don't believe it then go look it up in Miss Manners or any other of the many books on etiquette.

[Abigail Crabby]

I know someone this happened to - and I shake my head that she didn't realize she was being disrespected so.

I tell her over and over - you don't have to *work any magic* just be yourself and never let anyone use you.

I think it's starting to sink in -

I myself hate being reduced to Honey, Sugar, Sweetie Pie, Babe.... I have a name - to reduce me to some name because you can't remember mine or you just are lazy then we don't have enough in common to stay friends.

Da Schmooze and I have consentual familiars and we enjoy them because we are partnered, but that doesn't give anyone else the right.

I'm lucky in the respect that I only got that other kind of treatment in the straight world by cis men. I didn't realize at the time it was wrong as I wasn't a feminist I was young and rather stupid lol

Again, I'm treated to Missy, Lil Lady honey etc by straight men on the phone when we are talking about their cable products. I can't countermand them and demand they call me Sunny (my chosen name) as my calls are recorded and I have to put up with it - just another day in paradise at my job lol