Small Plane Crashes in Austin Tx

[Ashlea?]

Aren't we chipper?

Never called him a hero, but you apparently are one of those "I'll shh and pay the unlawful taxes, lordy lordy don't haul me away" types, so I won't continue arguing.

Hurts getting fucked by the iron dildo of a government.

[~Bo]

How any of you can condone this act of violence in any way, shape or form is ridiculous.

And frankly a little scary.

[~Bo]

Originally Posted by wolfwalker

my family members have been victims of violence. my mother was shot and killed in front of me when i was 4 yrs. old. my father being a police officer was shot and almost died protecting the citizens of this country. he also fought in ww2. i have family members who were killed and some injuried doing their jobs.

that being said, i did not act out in violence as a result. any more questions?

Yeah....how bout my question of if you think what he did was ok because he was mad at the gov't?

[Ashlea?]

pft...Here we go.

I never said I condone his behavior. Did I?...No,No I did not. Easy on the trigger tiger

I said look at the problem behind this. Why did he do this? Once again, i'll stop right there.

[Cyclopea]

He probably had a psychotic reaction to some pharmaceutical they'll pull off the market in a year or two.
Glad he didn't kill more people.

[~Bo]

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

pft...Here we go.

I never said I condone his behavior. Did I?...No,No I did not. Easy on the trigger tiger

I said look at the problem behind this. Why did he do this? Once again, i'll stop right there.

Doesn't matter WHY he did it at all. No matter what the reason......still wrong.

[Ashlea?]

And what your government is doing to us isn't wrong? People are going to what they are going to do. I don't condone this behavior at all. Maybe people would not resort to this behavior if they were not afraid of a government that should be afraid of it's people.

[~Bo]

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

And what your government is doing to us isn't wrong? People are going to what they are going to do. I don't condone this behavior at all. Maybe people would not resort to this behavior if they were not afraid of a government that should be afraid of it's people.

I'm not saying what the gov't does is right or wrong. That's not the issue. The issue is some deranged asshole trying to kill innocent people. I don't give a tiny rat's ass why he did it.
These people should not have to die because of HIS issues.

[Ashlea?]

*Edit*
Kthnxbai

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

Aren't we chipper?

Never called him a hero, but you apparently are one of those "I'll shh and pay the unlawful taxes, lordy lordy don't haul me away" types, so I won't continue arguing.

Hurts getting fucked by the iron dildo of a government.

I presume you are talking to me.

No , I assure you I am far from chipper ,ever.(although I love the word)

Color me a wus for wanting to have a house and good credit because I paid them?
Would it be the more intelligent choice to end up in prison and/or have a hefty tax lien
haunting me the rest of my life?

[Ashlea?]

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?

[AtLast]

I believe this to be an act of terrorism against innocent people. I have only caught small cuts of news about this as this time, but one report I heard concerned this not being called terrorism.

I'm thinking about how I sure as hell would feel terror if I were in thiat building! And what about the friends & family of those working there (and of the person that was killed other than the perp)?

Oaklahoma City (McVey) felt like a terrorist act to me. What, only acts of violence against innocent people in the US by someone from another country are terrorism?

Interested in what others think about this. I don't know that identifying it as such is in any way helpful to the victims/families, and I guess that is what really matters to me. Just thinking about this....

And I feel badly for the people of Austin having had this happen. Makes one think about how something like this can happen anywhere.

[Goofy]

Originally Posted by Dylan

<snipped for brevity>

When you're in a position in which you have control over people's lives, you can expect that people are going to get reallllly pissed off. Yeah, planes don't fly into buildings everyday (but loooorrrrrrdy be when they do, people flip the fuck out), but that doesn't mean that retaliation isn't undertaken everyday...especially toward those who have power and control over other people's finances, health, welfare, food, children, families, housing, livelihood, etc.


Dylan

Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.

[Cyclopea]

Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/

[Ashlea?]

Originally Posted by Goofy

I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?

Never said I was.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

^ Exactly my point. See what I ment about the "dur" effect. WHY are we afraid of the IRS, prison, taxes?

Anyone care to think about that yet?

*Edit*
blahblahblahkglsdfkgj..

Originally Posted by Ashlea?

Never said I was.

You seem to say that here.

[I'mOneToo]

are you talking about driving by a prison, or being a "guest" for an undetermined length of time?

only time i ever went to a prison was to drive a friend to visit a buddy in san quentin. when we got there she said if i went in i'd have to be searched, and they have a right to strip search you, search your car, and anything you're carrying. if you go in and refuse the search, the inmate is refused visiting privileges that day. i opted to wait outside in the car. yes i was scared, lol.

and the irs, i had them up my ass for a measly $60 in income that i didn't report. by the time they "caught me red-handed in my fraud attempt" (four years later) it cost over $400 in fines and late penalties.

it wasn't fraud it was a 1099 that someone never gave me for a $60 job i did that she reported to the irs for HER purposes but neglected to give me the piece i needed to keep from perpetrating "tax fraud".

i wouldn't fly any planes in over it. and i don't do any more contract labor.

OH shit yes i did, several years later! I filed an estimated tax return, you know when you guess how much you think you're going to make? Well they disagreed with me. They decided I was going to make $10k in 3 months instead of the $2k i made, and they hit me for the full liability of their guesstimate of $10k AND they froze my bank accounts. You know what? They don't give you BACK your bank accounts until THEY have decided that it's all settled. And in that case, I didn't owe them a dime, they ended up owing me because the estimate i paid was higher than the tax liability.

Still I wouldn't do them any harm. But they operate with the assumption that the citizen is a criminal and they hold all your assets until THEY decide that you're not. It's okay for them to steal from a citizen, but the citizen has no recourse. None whatsoever. And they take their sweet time giving you back what is rightfully yours.

And they didn't even apologize.

Originally Posted by Goofy

I'm not afraid of the IRS, prison or taxes. Why are you?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Excerpted from Seven Deadly Traits by Dave Cullen@ Slate:

" I spoke with several experts in mass murder Thursday, and we identified seven deadly traits of impending danger in Stack's manifesto.

Narcissism/egocentricity: Joseph Stack ended his life with a supreme act of narcissism, and that quality leaps out of every line of his rationalization. It's all about him. Through 30 years of his torture, "thieves, liars and self-serving scumbags" in Congress continually targeted Stack personally. The IRS and his own accountant joined in to make him their personal whipping boy. When the Senate redrew the tax code in 1986, "they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d)," Stack writes.

Grandiosity: Stack's grievances are wildly overblown and his swipes at powerful institutions grand and hyperbolic: "the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church . . . monsters of organized religion," "thugs and plunderers" in corporate boardrooms driven by "gluttony and overwhelming stupidity" committing "unthinkable atrocities." More comical is Stack's portrait of his own misery. As a fuller, objective emerges, we're likely to see more dramatic chasms between reality and his depictions, but the contradictions are already comical. Stack likens his plight to an elderly woman in the neighborhood living on cat food. He doesn't mention eating it in the cockpit of his private plane. In Stack's version, he lived and died a pauper. In real life, he amassed a series of businesses, a $230,000 home in an affluent community, and the airplane he crashed into the building.

Martyr/injustice collector: Killers like Stack love to project themselves as martyrs, but that thinking often emerges from a long history of collecting injustices, while ignoring his ever-growing wealth. Big Brother "strips my carcass," Stack complains. His antagonists are merciless: "[A]s usual, they left me to rot and die." He complains that the 1986 tax revision might as well as "directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave."

Superiority masking self-loathing (projection): Stack lashes out at "the incredible stupidity of the American public": "brainwashed" "zombies" who follow along dutifully, incapable of his keen insights to look right through the horror of "the real American nightmare." It's a feeble claim of superiority, when the entire treatise reeks of self-loathing. Stark ends with an attack on capitalism—"From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed." But this is not a man who rejected the system. He only rejected the idea of paying his taxes. He spent his life creating businesses, working the system, and constantly keeping score with his bank balance. Stack embraced capitalism and then convinced himself he was a dismal failure at it.
There is a strong hint of projection in Stack's thinking. When he complains of moving to a better life in Austin and discovering "a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance," he might as well be describing the document he's composing. Projection is common among depressed people, who take a personal trait they despise in themselves and apply it to something external to bat around and ridicule. The televangelist who decries immorality in the midst of an affair is a classic example. It looks to us like conscious hypocrisy, but it's really just a dirty little reusable tool for him to beat up on his own sins.

Isolationist thinking: This served as an aggravating factor for Stack. He presents himself as battling a monolithic series of adversaries: big business, big government, Big Brother, big religion. He sees himself as a shrunken David unable to match this Goliath. There is a suggestion of paranoia here. Stack is a supremely unreliable narrator of his own story, but he does seem to have created real financial hardship for himself. When he repeatedly chose not to pay his taxes, one or more of his business licenses was suspended.
That seems to be at the heart of Stack's whole mess. Unnamed, but ever-present in his commentary, is his immersion in a fringe group or groups who believed they were exempt from the federal income tax. By his account, Stack devoted enormous time, energy, and possibly money to this cause.
Stack made some awful choices on his taxes, but surrounding himself with like-minded zealots may have been just as dangerous in the long run. In his insightful FBI study "The Lethal Triad," Dr. Kevin Gilmartin describes intellectual isolation as a key factor when extremists lash out violently. It's counterintuitive, but joining certain groups can be more isolating than living alone. Stack found a group that encouraged and validated the idea of avoiding taxation, which might have been difficult for him to sustain on his own. The moral support he found appears to have helped him sustain a rather nutty concept for 20 to 30 years, in spite of the economic distress it inflicted on him.

Construing selfishness as selflessness: Stack needed a coping strategy, a rationalization for his financial failure. He found one in patriotism. Sure, it may look like greed to keep 100 percent of your paycheck, but Stack was doing it all for us! And, oh, the price he paid. "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0."

Helplessness/hopelessness: Joseph Stack committed both homicide and suicide this week, but all the signs point to suicide as the driver. The FBI trains hostage negotiators to look for two clear signals that a perpetrator is likely to do himself in. Helplessness is the sense that I can't get things to work out. Hopelessness sets in when that belief becomes permanent: The helplessness is here to stay. Stack's manifesto reeks of both. He felt powerless and took control in the only way he knew he could "win." He was pretty sure that if he crashed that plane his life would end. He just needed a way to justify it.

That's where the first four symptoms—narcissism, grandiosity, superiority, and martyrdom—came back into play. Performance murders like Stack's are narcissism taken to its worst extreme. Lots of people will die, most of them innocent, but sorry, I had to kill them to make my point. It's all about me."

http://www.slate.com/id/2245337/

Thanks for posting this information, very helpful to me. I haven't looked at some of the forensic behavioral literature in quite awhile.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Goofy

Dylan, I get what you're saying...mostly. But I think you’re nit picking a bit.

MOST people in MOST jobs don’t fear for their lives every day. Police, Fire Fighters and EMTs are the ones that come to mind as those that do. Because they NEED to in order to do their jobs effectively. Even most people in the military have some level of assumed safety, unless they’re deployed in a hostile area.

I too have done various jobs in construction, roofing, etc. I took those jobs knowing there was an inherent risk involved in them. Those jobs involved risks that, for the most part, I could control. There was little concern that someone would come in and shoot me because I didn’t hang the drywall right.

As you know, I work for the government as well. We've had bomb threats, gun threats and various other threats. But I don't go to work every day thinking that this could be the day someone loses it and blows up the building. So there is a general “assumption of safety” there. I also worked in Human Resources where my office was threatened for not hiring someone. Hell, I worked at a pizza place in college that had a bomb threat. But those were rare incidents and certainly not indicative of daily operations

So while I agree with you that virtually no job is 100% safe, I feel believe that most people DO have an assumption of safety when they go into work.

No matter what sort of work the IRS did in that building gives anyone the right to fly a plane into it. Or threaten its workers in any way. We can argue this point till the sheep come home, but I’m still not buying it.

And I disagree that it's a *most* people thing. I think more people than less have an assumed danger in their jobs. But we can agree to disagree.

I didn't know you work for the government...I thought you worked at a dentist's office.

Again, I don't know what you do for the government, but you're welcome to talk to Mahhh Woman about the (un)safety of her job. I'm sure her friend who was under 24hour police protection for months (I think it was months) would be willing to tell you about her experiences being followed, called on her personal phones, etc by known criminals.

Again, you're leaving out judges, district attorneys (more of Mahhh Woman's friends), court workers, etc.

I also don't know how long you were in construction, but I've seen some horrible accidents and even a man get run over by one of those big asphalt rollers. Only one of the accidents (a guy who accidently poured two buckets of hot tar all over his face...it was pretty horrible) was under the person's control. And when I set a man's leg on fire...it wasn't under his control.

We have probation and parole officers.

My point is, there is no assumed safety when dealing with other people. No one really knows when someone is going to snap. And if you're in a position that completely disrupts the lives of others, the chances of someone snapping go up.

Just as there's no assumed safety when driving your car. You never know what someone else is going to do. I mean, like you said, even at a pizza shop there's a bomb threat. And how many churches (they're 'supposed' to be safe) have been bombed?


Dylan