Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Heart

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.
Heart

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

WTH is “masculine of center people.” This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave....leaping all the way

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Kobi

IMO, it is just another concerted masculine effort to negate women and lesbians from the Butch agenda. It's a pet peeve of mine.

So these days, I identify simply as a lesbian just to take back the power of my womanness - something of which I am very proud. I fought too long and too hard to let a "masculine of any part" think they can tell me who I am or who I have to be.

I don't even understand what "masculine of center people" is supposed to mean. Who are the center people?

I am glad the ousted members will continue to build a womans butch community under the name Butch Nation. I like it. And thanks for the link. I have been looking for something like this.

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women?

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

Okay, but you're buying the first round.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Ah, go ahead. Open a can of worms. They're just worms.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.

But actually, keeping "woman/female" central to organizing efforts is a very good way to assert an anti-oppression, anti-patriarchy, anti-homophobia mission. Too many queer organizers do not understand this.

Heart

Every generation feels compelled to reinvent the wheel.

In this case, it's the wheel of a unicycle.

Mumble, mumble, something about: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". (George Santayana)

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

You ARE bad-ass, CherylNYC. And exactly the kind of woman I am thrilled to be fighting side-by-side with, as very visible lesbians.

[Kobi]

As a butch, I find the whole push to incorporate many identities under one concept as a disservice to all parties. There are distinct differences between male id's and female id's and it bothers me that women are expected to forego their uniqueness for the sake of someone else's identity.

I have no desire to recreate traditional male/female dynamics in my butchness. I prefer to create something unique to two women with different energies in a totally different woman defined way.

I am also opposed to inviting in heteronormative stuff, sexism, partriarchy, and misogyny into my womanness. That just seems counterproductive and self sabatoging.

I am happy to support my brothers and those of a masculine identity just as I am happy to support gay men and other identities in their respective journeys, but not at the expense of my own.

Different genders and their respective orientations have different issues they face as individuals, members of the our broader community, and as participants in the larger society. It is not a one size fits all kind of thing. And, I dont think it should be seen or perpetrated that way.

I am not interested in recreating the patriarchy with a different set of oppressive characters.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

I really like your use of the term reactionary in this context. It's absolutely spot on.

REACTIONARY: relating to, or characterized by reaction, especially against radical political or social change; conservative.

I've always been keenly aware of the conservative, reactionary undercurrent of "queer-er than thou" theory. It's a difficult thing to discuss because many people aren't historically/politically astute or they do not have an accurate understanding of Feminism. So, I just say my piece and leave the arguing to them that enjoys it.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

I so agree. I have gotten in SO many arguments over this very thing. Butch Women rock and are not men.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

I hated that about the - site...and about how it was pushed when I first found Butch/femme community. I am glad to see this brought front and center. Maybe, just maybe the powers that be will listen now.

Originally Posted by Chazz

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women?

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun.

Diversity makes us strong. We do not have to all be alike.

It does make me sad that somethin that looked like such a wonderful thing for the Butch community is broken, but I agree that this needed to happen.

[Slater]

Originally Posted by Heart

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.

I don't know enough about the particulars to know what the intentions or motives are, though like you I suspect it is about inclusiveness. So since I don't know exactly what happened or exactly what the motivations were, I will only comment on what I do know, that the mission statement was changed to "masculine of center."

1. I don't like the phrase "masculine of center" to begin with. I will tolerate it as shorthand in casual conversation where someone is referring to butches, studs, transmen, FtMs and all the symantic variations thereof. But in a mission statement? It feels flippant and dismissive at best. For one thing, it implicitly places the entirety of gender identity (or at least the only parts worth noting) onto a single axis with, presumably, "completely feminine" on one end and "completely masculine" on the other end. Besides being ridiculously oversimplistic, it also reinforces the same old more/less bullshit that I railed about (freaking incessantly, I know) over on dash 7-8 years ago.
It's concerning the leadership of the organization is so tone deaf to these issues that they either did not recognize the problem with the language or did not care.

2. When was it decreed that everything has to include everyone all the time. Among it's other problems, "masculine of center" is so broad as to be virtually meaningless. My dad could fit into that 'category' but I'm pretty damn sure that my experience of the world is so utterly different than his that putting us into the same 'category' is absurd.

3. Change the name of the organization. If you don't care about #1 and #2, call the organization Masculine Voices or something. Otherwise it feels like appropriation. You're calling the org Butch Voices at the same time as you are saying it's not really about butches, per se. Have your organization be whatever you want it to be, just don't call it something it's not.

Many years ago, when I worked at the Lesbian Resource Center we had a discussion about changing our mission statement to include bisexual women. I argued against it because I knew we didn't have the resources to develop programming specifically for bisexual women and just adding them into the mission statement felt like tokenism. I argued instead that we should make it clear that bisexual women were welcome to participate in any of the things we were already doing that might interest them. It seemed to me then, and it does now, that the name, the mission statement, and the activities of an organization should all align and if they don't something needs to be re-thought.


P.S. Hi Heart!

[The cute widdle wesbian]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

[The cute widdle wesbian]

haha yeah. Two of my best friends in the world call themselves "bulldagger dykes" I believe, they're exactly what I described: buzz cuts and baggy clothes and deep voices, etc, and they're probably the best friends I've ever had, and they're butch like moi. When I was young I thought I was transgendered and wanted to be a boy simply because I wanted to be with women, and I'd never been taught about lesbians so I thought that men were the only ones who could love women. I always get a flashback of myself with a buzz cut and baggy clothes and a deep voice, which was the most unhappy time of my life, when I hear "butch". That's all I meant. I wish that the word "butch" could be more versital rather then defining a certain manly type of woman. I am butch, and I look like a sporty type femme lol, just one of my little annoyances.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Chazz

<snip>We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

I think they moved it to Wyoming.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Slater

...it implicitly places the entirety of gender identity (or at least the only parts worth noting) onto a single axis with, presumably, "completely feminine" on one end and "completely masculine" on the other end. Besides being ridiculously oversimplistic, it also reinforces the same old more/less bullshit that I railed about (freaking incessantly, I know) over on dash 7-8 years ago.

Yes, this is one of the things that sticks in my craw... the whole continuum thing where some are "further along" than others. Calling it masculine-of- center implies that masculine is the desired direction, so presumably the more masculine, the better. Once again masculine is forgrounded and woman/female is backgrounded.

I've been insisting for awhile now that gender is a landscape, not a line.

Heart
(Hi Slater!)

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

Perhaps you walk not-straight because of those "manly" steel toed boots?

[Slater]

Originally Posted by Heart

gender is a landscape, not a line.

I'm totally stealing that.


And just so I'm adding something resembling content and not just posting a confession of word-theft:

I'm a little bit of a mixed bag when it comes to identifiers. I prefer female pronouns (though am not bothered if male pronouns are applied to me in an online setting) but I prefer traditionally male terms like 'boy' and 'mister' over their female counterparts. I identify as a lesbian (though I like 'dyke' better for its one-syllable convenience and auditory impact) but am less sure about 'woman'. I kinda feel like 'butch' goes in the 'woman' slot. Erm ... you know what I mean. Instead of butch being a type of woman (though I do understand that usage, I can't quite make it work for me in my head), butch exists alongside woman.