OSAMA BINLADEN IS DEAD

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by June

Corkey -- I know I have said this before, but I come from a Military family, I was born in an Army Hospital, my Father served, as did my Uncle, Cousins and both Grandfathers.

When I disagree with why we are sending these young people overseas, I am not besmirching them personally. They are doing the job they signed up to do. Many of them have no other choice for a career and further education (but that's a whole 'nother thread). I support our men and women in uniform, I do not support the reason they are over there.

In addition to family, I have many, many friends and family of choice who have proudly served this country in all branches of the service. I am saying "Me" but I think that a lot of us who loathe these wars and the real reasons for them feel similarly.

No one loathes war more than those who serve and who have served. I was not being specific with whom my post was for, I didn't think it was required.

[Novelafemme]

My previous posts are an effort to elicit thoughts of both accountability and peace. My words, albeit at times admittedly inflammatory, are never written to belittle, denigrate or devalue years spent in service to our country. In any capacity. I take issue with the waging of any war. I take issue with war as a suspension of all morality.

[Nat]

Has the military been besmirched in this thread?

[theoddz]

I'm relieved...not celebratory, that that S.O.B. is gone and won't be able to plan or execute any more murders (not saying that there won't be more just like him to take up his banner), but one thing keeps tapping at the back of my mind.....

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth does nothing except make the world blind and toothless."

My .02

~Theo~

[Rook]

I won't make this into a Religious Debate, I will say this though..
Asshole, Demon, supreme ayatollah of the Meanest, cruelest sick fuckin sumbitches in Existence, He's still a Muslim...
Whether 3...5...10,000, or 4 million claim he isn't, that they don't agree with his views is an entirely different matter, I'm more than sure any Educated Muslim will agree that only 1 can come down from where ever and say "Hypocrite, Leave".
And the 1 aint even Human.
Wanna go 2 out of 3?
That's the closest to Roman Catholics saying "Ok, my daughters not only gay but s/he's going to Transition...The Pope decries this, and yet she's always been a devout Catholic...Maybe she's not."
I say closest because everyone has their own thoughts on what is, and what isn't, if we listened to all of the "what isn't" we'd be screwed front and back.
To say they gave him a Proper Islamic treatment, w/o proof is like saying (no offense to kabbalists/haredi) the Baal Shem Tov was given a proper Kaddish by muslim Clerics.
They could've very well aprehended him, like Saddam, escorted him to Saudi Arabia, whom btw, to my knowledge, allied themself with the United States AND praised their actions upon notice of his Death.
Like Saddam, he would've faced a severe Trial, unlike Saddam[if I have right info.] it would be a judgment handed down by his Peers.
In accordance with Laws he claimed to revere far more than he'd ever give 2 squirts of piss within Our Judicial system, why? Easy, Shari'ah, contrary to most Western...and some European thoughts, is the word of Allah, something he claims to Love more than his own children..
Could u imagine how tarnished his reputation would've been had he been on trial and threatened them??
After all the shit he's slung in the name of Allah, you actually believe they'd let him go unscathed?
As for Gas, that shit's gonna go up anyways, with or w/o bin Laden news, hell...It started shooting for the stars when the civil unrest occurred in Egypt.

As for showing the Corpse, regardless again that he's the next worse thing to Hitler, there is such a think as our own Humanity, and respect for it...
Had they shown every gruesome picture in Gorey living Color, do you think they wouldnt hit the roof, like they did when the incident of Abu Ghraib occured?{btw, nice punishment to those officers}
I too come from a Military Family, Half of my biological Fathers family are muslim, 4 muslims served in Air Force, Army, and Marines, my father included.
I almost did, but both my health and my youth fucked me over.
My heart goes out to the Troops putting their lives on the Line for OUR freedom to say and do precisely This -waves at this forum-
I have Friends who're married to Soldiers, have Children in Service...
I've spent weeks consoling very cherished Friends sadness after their Spouse was deployed within weeks of returning Home..
I'm as much a Patriot as anyone else...
I will happily call Bullshit, if I see it, smell it or Feel it.
I'll gladly debate till the Cows come home, I won't pay attention or tolerate insults tho.

[theoddz, didnt Gandhi say that ? awesome]
G'day

Al-Azhar University's grand Imam -&- others decries "proper burial" at Sea

[AtLast]

Hi Nat-

I do see your points. My comments ("I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!") - came at the heels of phone conversations with a family member in NYC and a friend there who lost several friends and co-workers after calling them last night upon hearing this news.

No- two wrongs do not make a right. I do have a problem with some of the dismissal of what family members of 9/11 victims have gone through. As well as for those that did rescue work and were just close to the Towers, the Pentagon and in PA. This event is very different for them- many have suffered PTSD for years now as well as other difficulties. I felt like I was talking to them as I did within a short time after the attacks as far as how they were feeling last night.

I have issues with many US actions, however, sometimes I don't think we all think before spouting off in these matters. Think about the fact that our site reaches many people all over not only the US and Canada but the world that have gone through some horrible things.

But, yes, I understand where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by Nat

Hi AtLast -

I wanted to address a few of your points (I would address more fully, but I am at work and at the mercy of time and my iphone).

"I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious."

GW is seen by many as a war criminal, and many people could say he is not a "true" Christian, but if his body were dumped in the ocean without a funeral, I'm pretty sure many people (Christian or not) would be upset about it.

However, this issue is somewhat moot since it has been reported that he did receive a proper send-off. I still think it was a weird decision to dump his body in the ocean. I didn't even know it was legal to dump a body in the ocean as a means of burial.

"I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!"

This sort of tit-for-tat logic could justify anything - no matter how horrific. I'm going to hold with the belief that any number of wrongs don't make a right.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Rook

I won't make this into a Religious Debate, I will say this though..
Asshole, Demon, supreme ayatollah of the Meanest, cruelest sick fuckin sumbitches in Existence, He's still a Muslim...
Whether 3...5...10,000, or 4 million claim he isn't, that they don't agree with his views is an entirely different matter, I'm more than sure any Educated Muslim will agree that only 1 can come down from where ever and say "Hypocrite, Leave".
And the 1 aint even Human.
Wanna go 2 out of 3?
That's the closest to Roman Catholics saying "Ok, my daughters not only gay but s/he's going to Transition...The Pope decries this, and yet she's always been a devout Catholic...Maybe she's not."
I say closest because everyone has their own thoughts on what is, and what isn't, if we listened to all of the "what isn't" we'd be screwed front and back.
To say they gave him a Proper Islamic treatment, w/o proof is like saying (no offense to kabbalists/haredi) the Baal Shem Tov was given a proper Kaddish by muslim Clerics.
They could've very well aprehended him, like Saddam, escorted him to Saudi Arabia, whom btw, to my knowledge, allied themself with the United States AND praised their actions upon notice of his Death.
Like Saddam, he would've faced a severe Trial, unlike Saddam[if I have right info.] it would be a judgment handed down by his Peers.
In accordance with Laws he claimed to revere far more than he'd ever give 2 squirts of piss within Our Judicial system, why? Easy, Shari'ah, contrary to most Western...and some European thoughts, is the word of Allah, something he claims to Love more than his own children..
Could u imagine how tarnished his reputation would've been had he been on trial and threatened them??
After all the shit he's slung in the name of Allah, you actually believe they'd let him go unscathed?
As for Gas, that shit's gonna go up anyways, with or w/o bin Laden news, hell...It started shooting for the stars when the civil unrest occurred in Egypt.

As for showing the Corpse, regardless again that he's the next worse thing to Hitler, there is such a think as our own Humanity, and respect for it...
Had they shown every gruesome picture in Gorey living Color, do you think they wouldnt hit the roof, like they did when the incident of Abu Ghraib occured?{btw, nice punishment to those officers}
I too come from a Military Family, Half of my biological Fathers family are muslim, 4 muslims served in Air Force, Army, and Marines, my father included.
I almost did, but both my health and my youth fucked me over.
My heart goes out to the Troops putting their lives on the Line for OUR freedom to say and do precisely This -waves at this forum-
I have Friends who're married to Soldiers, have Children in Service...
I've spent weeks consoling very cherished Friends sadness after their Spouse was deployed within weeks of returning Home..
I'm as much a Patriot as anyone else...
I will happily call Bullshit, if I see it, smell it or Feel it.
I'll gladly debate till the Cows come home, I won't pay attention or tolerate insults tho.

[theoddz, didnt Gandhi say that ? awesome]
G'day

Al-Azhar University's grand Imam -&- others decries "proper burial" at Sea

Thanks for this link- the burial at sea does not seem to be getting much attention in terms of it being properly sanctioned by Islamic Law on any media I get.

[Novelafemme]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

[~Bo]

I'm not ashamed to say that if I lived close to Ground Zero, I'd be right there with that mob celebrating, shouting USA.....USA at the top of my lungs and waving the US flag.

We've waited 10 long years for this day. Happy???? You're damn right I am!!



We've got one fuckin' rockin' military!! Thank God for Pres Obama!!!

[Nat]

I think celebrating in the streets (and on the internet) dog-whistles approval to the people who are willing to do things like this:

Maine Mosque Vandalized Following Bin Laden Death



On Monday in Portland, ME the walls of the largest mosque in town were spray-painted with "Osama today, Islam tomorow [sic]" and other phrases, sometime following morning prayers on the day after American forces killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by Novelafemme

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

While I so respect your integrity here and sense of spirituality (if I may say?)... I would ask:

*Does not everyone grieve differently and their sense of justice is entitled to them? (Individually, as they see/feel fit?)

*Can you compare the war with Iraq with this "mission"... one having NOTHING TO DO with 9/11? (And many civilians and children lost...?)

*The other "wars" having so many "casualites" and this one mission... having none (for the U.S. or civilians in the area).

*Are you considering the loss/feelings of the victims of the 9/11 families and friends? If they feel a sense of justice, are you angry at THEM?

*Has the majority of innocent "killings" (including WRONG coutries - for going to war against) regarding 9/11 happened during President Bush or under President Obama? Is this NOT an important distinction to make at this time?

*If he (The POTUS) said that it was a priority for his candicacy/presidency... do "get - capture or kill" Bin Laden, has he not done his job then? (That folks wanted this when they elected him.)

*Do you suppose, if MLK was alive today, he would he say... "now, no Blacks in THIS operation against a force that took down our country on 9/11"? (You quote him for "peace", which I why I write this.)
__

I don't understand why folks are questioning NOW what they voted for. Not YOU, but in general. (I don't know who you voted for.) However, the most serious attack on American soil happened that day, and now there is a sense of "justice". Whether one believes in this or that, that he was just KILLED without a snot's chance of surrendering, etc... Do, you think this guy went down without a fight, who once lived in the hills the way he did and conduct countless murderous attacks...? He was in a very comfortable place, a mansion - if you will... knocking down exactly that type of living/lifestyle he preached AGAINST. Folks lived around his greater area lived in slums... (I wonder, did he give those poor folks money, or just for "his cause" against Western Civilization?) And although, I'm not into the "snuffing out" of folks... and many of us have trouble with our "government" and their actions at times, WHY would anyone be upset -- with/and or questioning the president HERE? What a HUGE MEGA gamble this was - for HIM at this time... like he would LIE (?!). Someone who HAS to dot his "I's" and cross his "T's" UNLIKE ANY OTHER president before himPlease, tell me this is NOT BIGOTED? (Not you, the public... since he became president?!)

THANKS!

*WILDCAT

[The_Lady_Snow]

Please refer to POC as their nationality not a color. Please and thank you...

[Julie]

Rook?
I have no idea what you said.
What was the meaning or the ending of your post?

[violaine]

if martin luther king were alive, he might [hard to know it's impossible/hypothetical] still use terms familiar to his speeches - 'black, white, et c.'

pondering topics within this thread; my friend here now, says he prefers 'black,' and we then found this:

Surveys show that the majority of Black Americans have no preference for whether "African American" or "Black" is employed to describe them, although they also show that there is a slight preference for "Black" in personal settings and "African American" in more formal settings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

[Nat]

From Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech, "Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence" which was delivered in protest to the war in Vietnam, I think it's reasonable to think he might have meant what he said in that quote posted above.

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. And history is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says:

Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. Therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word.

We are now faced with the fact, my friends, that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history, there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked, and dejected with a lost opportunity. The tide in the affairs of men does not remain at flood -- it ebbs. We may cry out desperately for time to pause in her passage, but time is adamant to every plea and rushes on. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residues of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words, "Too late." There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. Omar Khayyam is right: "The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on."

We still have a choice today: nonviolent coexistence or violent coannihilation. We must move past indecision to action. We must find new ways to speak for peace in Vietnam and justice throughout the developing world, a world that borders on our doors. If we do not act, we shall surely be dragged down the long, dark, and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Please don't tell a POC what term is ok to use cause Wikipedia says so.

[violaine]

oh. that was merely a brief/ quick reference after my poc friend and i had a conversation. i posted to topic.

i'm sure that i could find more-

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...anics-too.html

[AtLast]

Full transcript link-
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcr...ryId=135917389

Lawrence Wright: Bin Laden's Death 'Long In Coming'

The CIA was reaching out to screenwriters, such as I had done, and I said: Well, you know, I'm a reporter. I can't go writing screenplays for the CIA. But I'll tell you in the form of an op-ed for the New York Times what I think if we were able to catch bin Laden.

First of all, remember that bin Laden is the most famous man in the world. He's going to be one of the most famous men in history. So if you have the good luck to catch him, you have to deal with the legacy, not just the man.

And if you catch him, don't kill him because he'll become a martyr, which is what he seeks to be. But don't take him to America just yet.

First of all, take him to Kenya, where on August 6, 1998, he set off a bomb in front of an American embassy, killing 224 people and wounding, blinding 150 Africans. Let him sit in a courtroom in Nairobi and tell 150 blind Africans that he was just striking at a symbol of American power.

And then you can take him to Tanzania, where on the same day, he set off another bomb in front of another American embassy, killing 11 people, all of them Muslims. And bin Laden excused that because it was Friday, and good Muslims would be in the mosque.

I think that would be a wonderful venue to talk about what a good Muslim actually is. And then you could bring him to America and have him answer for the death of the 17 sailors on the USS Cole in October, 2000, and the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11.

But you don't have to stop there. You can take him so many places. You know, Casablanca, Madrid, London, Bali. But just take him one last place. Take him home and try him under Sharia law, which is the only law that he and his followers would respect.

And if he's convicted, he would be taken to a square in downtown Riyadh, and the executioner is a big man with a long sword, and it's Saudi custom for the executioner to go out and ask the crowd, which is composed of the victims of the condemned man, to forgive him.

And if they couldn't do that, then the executioner would do his job, and bin Laden would be taken and buried in an unmarked Wahhabi graveyard. And I thought in that manner, you could begin to roll back some of his awful legacy.

The whole interview is available via the link above.

[Gayla]

I spend my days driving around, listening to the local news station on the radio (unless there is a baseball game on, then I listen to that). Today was all about this. I listened to approximately 10.5 hours of news coverage. I heard everything from the local response from the guys who hang out in a bar by the military base to the national interviews with, well, with everyone to the one hour special report ABC radio just did.

What I've heard, and what I believe to be true, is that this was a capture or kill mission. He was given the option of surrendering to the special forces and he chose not to. Of course, they would have rather taken him alive but he wasn't going to let that happen.

I also heard, and I believe, that in addition to not wanting to create a shrine at his place of burial, the main reason he was buried at sea is because no country was willing to take his body.

I fully expect the conspiracy theorist to run rampant. I've already heard that he really died 10 years ago, that they actually took him out a month ago and just delayed the news for political gain, that they didn't kill him and he's currently in custody somewhere, that they didn't bury him at sea and are holding his body somewhere, and it goes on and on and on.

Call me naive but until I have something to go on other than random Facebook rants, I will believe what the President tells me.

I still don't feel like this is something to celebrate but it has been interesting to see the little pockets of patriotism that have sprung up since last night. I noticed more flags flying today than I have in a long time. The corner byt he post office where the tea party/pro life folks usually hang out, was occupied today by a random group of folks that I've never seen before. They weren't chanting or singing or really making much of a fuss at all - just standing there, waving their flags. As I sat at the light, a few more folks joined them and by the time I was making my way home they had filled up all four corners of the intersection. I honked and waved.

[BullDog]

I don't believe that peace comes from killing someone. My first reaction was to post the "Imagine" video. I am not celebrating his death.

However, I do believe President Obama and the Navy Seals did their job with professionalism and efficiency. President Obama also gave credit to the Bush Administration- something I can't imagine a Republican President doing in return.

Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think anything seems fishy. If President Obama was doing it for political gain I would think he would have timed this closer to the re-election time and not now. Americans have a short memory. I don't think President Obama would try to fake anything of this nature, so yes I believe Bin Laden is dead and don't think anyone is trying to hide any evidence by burying him at sea. I do believe they tried to respect how his body was handled.

I would have preferred to have seen him brought to trial, but on the other hand I do believe under the leadership of President Obama that the killing of Bin Laden was done as professionally and as ethically as possible.

Now we wait to see what comes next. I believe everyone involved in this mission is very clear that it is far from over.

p.s. thank you Nat for posting the link for President Obama's announcement on the internet. I don't watch tv, so would have missed it otherwise.