OCCUPY WALL STREET

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I agree but how could we do that? We can't even stop the senate from passing bills erasing our rights as citizens of the United States. And I don't even want to get started on the average citizen awareness of what is happening to our rights. Even when they are aware they are apathetic at best. Percentage wise people just aren't getting it.

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

I've pretty much decided the presidential elections don't mean squat. Congress runs the country now - a congress which is influenced by wealthy special interests. Maybe the governors run some stuff too.

I would spout off about the line-item veto and campaign reforms here, but my cynicism is starting to outweigh my optimism. I really don't know what can be done. (Is there an icon for hopelessness?)

i think it's high time we put our foot down and just say NO to a defunct political process. if there are NO votes then there can be no decision on anything. then what can they do? make not voting illegal?

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by GeorgiaMa'am

Exactly. And we have a governor in Georgia who thinks we should use prison labor to take over all the farm labor jobs that were left when the illegal immigrants were driven out. - The more things change, the more they stay the same.

but this is so tyical of big business when they are the ones that pushed for the visas that specifically are designed to populate the ag culture.

edited to add.....*insert for profit prison here*

[Cin]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

I don't see how legalizing drugs aids the OWS movement still. I think it would bring more financial problems still to the middle class and those that can't afford the medication they need now and aid as you say the CIA, law enforcement, and the rich and corporations are the ones who deal it. hmmm.. As for racism. I'm not seeing that either. The people in this movement that are being discriminated against are the middle class and poor and they are the ones being made to pay more for services and product, it doesn't matter what race they are only that they are in a certain income bracket and being taken advantage of. I guess if you could explain further I may see it how legalizing drugs helps anyone that is protesting for equal financial and corporate rights. Thanks.

I would love to see people not vote in the next election, especially for President. How we get people to not vote is another question and not going to happen. I do think OWS will think of something to protest though when election time comes up and I can't wait to see that and what happens.

I think it is not so much about what will aid the OWS Movement as it is about what will aid the poor and the middle class. The movement is a resource, a means to an end, not an end in itself. In that spirit, the spirit of what is best for the 99%, legalizing drugs would eliminate the excuse to continue with the kind of duplicity our government and its friends engage in, as well as the excuse to lock up unprecedented amounts of U.S. citizens. It would free up amazing amounts of money and it would put a cramp in the continued militarization of the police, at least until they found another excuse in the form of another inanimate object or ideology to declare war on. In this particular instance, the war on drugs, race is important because it is our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. Actually, it is always our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. So in my opinion you cannot over emphasize racism. I don't think you can over emphasize any ism. They are all connected. An intricately woven tapestry of control and subjugation. Our freedom is irrevocably bound up in each other and our recognition of this tapestry, our connectiveness, and how we must make use of the strength we have together. Alone we are powerless but together our power would be awe inspiring.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I think it is not so much about what will aid the OWS Movement as it is about what will aid the poor and the middle class. The movement is a resource, a means to an end, not an end in itself. In that spirit, the spirit of what is best for the 99%, legalizing drugs would eliminate the excuse to continue with the kind of duplicity our government and its friends engage in, as well as the excuse to lock up unprecedented amounts of U.S. citizens. It would free up amazing amounts of money and it would put a cramp in the continued militarization of the police, at least until they found another excuse in the form of another inanimate object or ideology to declare war on. In this particular instance, the war on drugs, race is important because it is our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. Actually, it is always our sisters and brothers of color who pay the heaviest price. So in my opinion you cannot over emphasize racism. I don't think you can over emphasize any ism. They are all connected. An intricately woven tapestry of control and subjugation. Our freedom is irrevocably bound up in each other and our recognition of this tapestry, our connectiveness, and how we must make use of the strength we have together. Alone we are powerless but together our power would be awe inspiring.

excellent post. ty

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by persiphone

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

I'll take it that's tongue in cheek. My grandmothers marched for that right to vote and I'll be darned if anyone stops me.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

well its not like politicians aren't aggressively trying to suppress voters. i say let's turn it around on them and show up at the polls and help them with that. let's make it impossible for anyone to vote.

LOL. It sounds good. There are some potential problems though.

I'm thinking then the five people who managed to get through and vote for Romney will elect the president.

Also if we have enough people aware and willing to act that we could stop the elections why not just use that power to put someone in office who would not be bought.

Oh wait, is that even possible? Are there people who are not for sale?

We are taught from our first breath that we are and should be for sale one way or another. Work is the ethic. Sell the hours of your life to the highest bidder. And in the case of the poor and the uneducated it is a pitiful bid indeed. It would be hard not to be for sale.

Laws need to be changed or made that will protect us and keep money out of government. But I guess stopping the election isn't a bad idea. Anything that isn't business as usual is worth a shot.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by guihong

I'll take it that's tongue in cheek. My grandmothers marched for that right to vote and I'll be darned if anyone stops me.

aahhh ya party pooper. you're right, of course. but dang it's just not working.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

LOL. It sounds good. There are some potential problems though.

I'm thinking then the five people who managed to get through and vote for Romney will elect the president.

Also if we have enough people aware and willing to act that we could stop the elections why not just use that power to put someone in office who would not be bought.

Oh wait, is that even possible? Are there people who are not for sale?

We are taught from our first breath that we are and should be for sale one way or another. Work is the ethic. Sell your the hours of your life to the highest bidder. And in the case of the poor and the uneducated it is a pitiful bid indeed. It would be hard not to be for sale.

Laws need to be changed or made that will protect us and keep money out of government. But I guess stopping the election isn't a bad idea. Anything that isn't business as usual is worth a shot.

right...but how to do that since our "votes" don't really count anyway? outside of completely derailing the whole thing.....

[Cin]

Originally Posted by guihong

I'll take it that's tongue in cheek. My grandmothers marched for that right to vote and I'll be darned if anyone stops me.

Well as long as you are registered to vote on the side of those with the power to suppress voters' rights or live in an area that is not seen as a voting problem for those with the power to suppress voters' rights there will be no problem for you. Your vote and your right to do it will be protected.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by persiphone

right...but how to do that since our "votes" don't really count anyway? outside of completely derailing the whole thing.....

Well we can't. You need numbers to affect change. Until THEN, if there ever is a THEN and if it is not too late when THEN happens, we can keep on speaking out and up at every possible opportunity and feet to the street always helps. But I don't mind derailing the whole thing either.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Well as long as you are registered to vote on the side of those with the power to suppress voters' rights or live in an area that is not seen as a voting problem for those with the power to suppress voters' rights there will be no problem for you. Your vote and your right to do it will be protected.

it's hard, though, to ask women...who haven't had the right to vote for a full century yet....to NOT vote. i mean, i would totally boycott the elections in a heartbeat. but i can understand why some women would not want to.

on a side note....it's interesting that the idea of women marching for the right vote comes up in a protest for american's rights. i find that ironic and fascinating.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Well we can't. You need numbers to affect change. Until THEN, if there ever is a THEN and if it is not too late when THEN happens, we can keep on speaking out and up at every possible opportunity and feet to the street always helps. But I don't mind derailing the whole thing either.

i asked everyone i knew today if they knew what the national defense act was. not a single person could answer. *shudders* i'm moving to boycott the presidential elections.

[atomiczombie]

I gotta say that I disagree about boycotting elections. Yes, voting means a lot less when the only people who can get a serious chance to get their message out and on the ballot are the ones who take big money from the 1%ers. However, voting is still a way to make our voices heard.

I am against the idea that voting for the lesser of two evils is the best choice. As long as people always choose the lesser of two evils, the two evils are the only two choices there will be. But I plan to vote for the Green party candidate next year. Even if she doesn't get enough votes to get on the ballot in all 50 states, I will write in her name. At least that way I still have a voice and my feelings are known. If there weren't any power at the polls, then all the political ads wouldn't be on the air and in print.

As for legalizing drugs, I have a lot of mixed feelings about that. Yes the war on drugs is a huge failure. But I also think drug abuse has a devastating impact on the poor and marginalized people of the US. I think the CIA has had a hand in creating these drug problems, and the US government hasn't taken a serious step to address it. Instead, they just feed the prison system with drug abusers and dealers.

Not all drugs have the same effects. Marijuana can be used by many people socially. But cocaine, meth, heroin and PCP aren't drugs that can be used safely by anyone, imho. I think legalizing them isn't an answer. Investing in treatment programs and drug education is a better approach. Lets help people to stop using these destructive substances and provide support to help them improve their lives, and help their families and communities get educated about these substances and how to deal with people who are addicts in humane and productive ways, instead of just locking them up in jail and throwing away the key.

This is just my opinion and the context of it comes from my own life experience as the child of an alcoholic and a recovering drug addict myself.

[AtLast]

I understand some of what is being said about voting in the US and believe me I have felt like my own vote has not "counted" many times in terms of presidential elections. On the other hand, there was a very different story with the election of Barrack Obama and grass roots organizing as well as the role of young voters- there really was. Maybe if one is under 55 or so, they really don't get this. Those of us that were alive during the 50's & 60's, even not living in the deep South and not also being POC, know that his election was predicated on a vast movement of "just people" with votes that did "count." I never thought that an African American would actually become president in my lifetime. I'm not certain that a woman will be elected to the presidency during it, either. And yes, I hate the monetizing of our politics and know that the only way what goes on can be changed by getting private money out of elections. Actually, I see the Occupy movement as a means to reach this goal eventually.

I also have seen how on more local levels, my vote is much more part of change and sometimes, I honestly feel that our efforts ought to be local to build the real impetus for change on the national level.

Something else that really bothers me is just how few people vote that could and the excuses they use for not voting are just that- excuses. If you don’t participate in a democracy, of course your ideology won’t be represented. And the fact is, unless we educate and communicate our ideas with others, we will often not be on the winning side of elections. And this doesn’t get done by screaming talking point discussions that is so much a part of what the general population is exposed to by media that is bought and paid for- yes, even left-wing/progressive media.

What is going on with the suppression of voting rights is a very serious situation. It is very much a direct undermining of POC and all poor people as well as students and the elderly. It represents so much of what when on during the Jim Crowe era (which some historians see as never really ending).

Social movements do bring change. Not as fast as many would like because the US electorate is very diverse and today, finding any common ground among us in order to break ideological gridlock is next to impossible and this fact resides in both major political parties. This reflects our electorate very accurately and nothing will change if we the People don't compromise politically as well as continue to accept the Citizens United decision as impossible to overturn via Constitutional Amendment. Frankly, I wouldn't mind the entire OWS movement having this as a single goal. Achieving this would unlock the power to get any private money out of elections. Yes, this is something that will take years. That is how democracy works It isn't a one-click does it process.

I just have to add something- right on our voter registration cards is a space to voluntter to work in our election processes. Have anyone seen someone younger than 60 usually at your polling place? Stoping voter suppression tactics means being directly involved in your voting processes right in your district. Ever think about just who is behind things like voting machines being lost ot ballots that end up in a warehouse somewhere? Activism is more than protesting on the streets or even casting a vote. Take a personal day off and participate at your local polling place!

[Gráinne]

I hope you don't mind my questions again . I'm honestly not trying to stir things up, or even necessarily oppose all of OWS, but I'm a great pain in the neck, you have to give me that!

1. Let's say that OWS "wins" their #1 priority, whatever that would be. There seems to be so many goals, but let's say something equivalent to the desegregation of the Montgomery buses, or desegregation of Central High School. Both of those changed a great deal of lives, no matter if the people were involved with the civil rights movement or not. What is your "win", and what would it look like to someone not in the movement or associated with banking or politics? How would I know the difference in my daily life?

2. I read a terrifying little book in high school called Animal Farm, which should be required reading. It is Orwell's satire of the Russian Revolution, and I know some would say we're already there in our own country. I know OWS is run apparently without leaders, all are equal, and majority votes and all that. How would the movement, if it grows, handle the human nature to divide up into classes, as the animals do? The novel starts with good intentions and a utopian idea but goes haywire. If you do elect leaders, are they not more powerful themselves by definition?

I can see we'll never agree, but I'm trying to see your side.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I gotta say that I disagree about boycotting elections. Yes, voting means a lot less when the only people who can get a serious chance to get their message out and on the ballot are the ones who take big money from the 1%ers. However, voting is still a way to make our voices heard.

I am against the idea that voting for the lesser of two evils is the best choice. As long as people always choose the lesser of two evils, the two evils are the only two choices there will be. But I plan to vote for the Green party candidate next year. Even if she doesn't get enough votes to get on the ballot in all 50 states, I will write in her name. At least that way I still have a voice and my feelings are known. If there weren't any power at the polls, then all the political ads wouldn't be on the air and in print.

As for legalizing drugs, I have a lot of mixed feelings about that. Yes the war on drugs is a huge failure. But I also think drug abuse has a devastating impact on the poor and marginalized people of the US. I think the CIA has had a hand in creating these drug problems, and the US government hasn't taken a serious step to address it. Instead, they just feed the prison system with drug abusers and dealers.

Not all drugs have the same effects. Marijuana can be used by many people socially. But cocaine, meth, heroin and PCP aren't drugs that can be used safely by anyone, imho. I think legalizing them isn't an answer. Investing in treatment programs and drug education is a better approach. Lets help people to stop using these destructive substances and provide support to help them improve their lives, and help their families and communities get educated about these substances and how to deal with people who are addicts in humane and productive ways, instead of just locking them up in jail and throwing away the key.

This is just my opinion and the context of it comes from my own life experience as the child of an alcoholic and a recovering drug addict myself.

okay but writing her in puts your entire vote at risk of being tossed. doesn't it? (i honestly don't know) i think the power at the polls is just as delusionary as the idea that we live in the democracy that we think we have. we have just as little choice at the polls as we do anywhere else in this country.

and apparently.....there are states provisions that allow for temporary suspension of presidential elections in an emergency. there are also legal actions that can put the whole thing into question. so it's not really a radical or absurd idea, which until i looked into it...i thought it was kinda out there.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by persiphone

okay but writing her in puts your entire vote at risk of being tossed. doesn't it? (i honestly don't know) i think the power at the polls is just as delusionary as the idea that we live in the democracy that we think we have. we have just as little choice at the polls as we do anywhere else in this country.

and apparently.....there are states provisions that allow for temporary suspension of presidential elections in an emergency. there are also legal actions that can put the whole thing into question. so it's not really a radical or absurd idea, which until i looked into it...i thought it was kinda out there.

Actually write-ins are counted. And, as AtLast said, there are all sorts of local elections and ballot initiatives that are important to vote on too. The Republicans are passing these voter-supression laws because they know that the fewer people who vote, the more their agenda wins. So not voting isn't going to change anything for the better imho.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by AtLast

I understand some of what is being said about voting in the US and believe me I have felt like my own vote has not "counted" many times in terms of presidential elections. On the other hand, there was a very different story with the election of Barrack Obama and grass roots organizing as well as the role of young voters- there really was. Maybe if one is under 55 or so, they really don't get this. Those of us that were alive during the 50's & 60's, even not living in the deep South and not also being POC, know that his election was predicated on a vast movement of "just people" with votes that did "count." I never thought that an African American would actually become president in my lifetime. I'm not certain that a woman will be elected to the presidency during it, either. And yes, I hate the monetizing of our politics and know that the only way what goes on can be changed by getting private money out of elections. Actually, I see the Occupy movement as a means to reach this goal eventually.

I also have seen how on more local levels, my vote is much more part of change and sometimes, I honestly feel that our efforts ought to be local to build the real impetus for change on the national level.

Something else that really bothers me is just how few people vote that could and the excuses they use for not voting are just that- excuses. If you don’t participate in a democracy, of course your ideology won’t be represented. And the fact is, unless we educate and communicate our ideas with others, we will often not be on the winning side of elections. And this doesn’t get done by screaming talking point discussions that is so much a part of what the general population is exposed to by media that is bought and paid for- yes, even left-wing/progressive media.

What is going on with the suppression of voting rights is a very serious situation. It is very much a direct undermining of POC and all poor people as well as students and the elderly. It represents so much of what when on during the Jim Crowe era (which some historians see as never really ending).

Social movements do bring change. Not as fast as many would like because the US electorate is very diverse and today, finding any common ground among us in order to break ideological gridlock is next to impossible and this fact resides in both major political parties. This reflects our electorate very accurately and nothing will change if we the People don't compromise politically as well as continue to accept the Citizens United decision as impossible to overturn via Constitutional Amendment. Frankly, I wouldn't mind the entire OWS movement having this as a single goal. Achieving this would unlock the power to get any private money out of elections. Yes, this is something that will take years. That is how democracy works It isn't a one-click does it process.

I just have to add something- right on our voter registration cards is a space to voluntter to work in our election processes. Have anyone seen someone younger than 60 usually at your polling place? Stoping voter suppression tactics means being directly involved in your voting processes right in your district. Ever think about just who is behind things like voting machines being lost ot ballots that end up in a warehouse somewhere? Activism is more than protesting on the streets or even casting a vote. Take a personal day off and participate at your local polling place!

the actual ins and outs of voting laws in each state is near mind boggling. it's a huge source of discouragement for many.

[persiphone]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Actually write-ins are counted. And, as AtLast said, there are all sorts of local elections and ballot initiatives that are important to vote on too. The Republicans are passing these voter-supression laws because they know that the fewer people who vote, the more their agenda wins. So not voting isn't going to change anything for the better imho.

i was just saying....imagine if NO ONE voted. just try to picture it.

edited after looking into write-ins.....what if EVERYONE wrote in a person not on the ballot. better?