Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Deborah

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

I dont know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

While I do think that organizers of events should get perks becasue of how difficult the work is, I agree that of someone is asking for donations full disclosure of what is happening with the money is the right thing to do.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Deborah

I don't know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

Lol, so many of us know each other in real time I usually just assume the best.

My apologies to cwl! I probably need to be more careful about posting what I think in the body of a thread rather than just hitting thanks or sending a private rep note or assuming people know each other and that interactions are benign.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by June

While I think we can go too far in denying ourselves equity/payment for work done, and organizing work is valuable, whether it is bringing folks together, providing learning and growth opportunities, or all of the above, I am also personally invested in equality. (long sentence!)

There is a thin line for me in situations like this between entitlement (which is taking, which can also be seen as privilege) and being compensated for time. How do you (general) decide who's work is more valuable? Who's voice is more valuable? (getting back on topic!).

There is a lot going on within this conversation about Butch (all different kinds!) Voices and who's voice is getting heard, and who has been pushed so far to the back of the room, that it is barely audible.

As a Femme partnered to a female identified Butch person, who also has many friends across the Butch and male spectrum, I am personally invested that all of their voices are heard and respect is given. Beyond the financials, it is worrisome to me that it appears that once again, Butch women are expected to subjugate/sit down/be quiet/not create waves because they are somehow perceived to be less than or out dated or passe. It's also alarming to me that there is a reluctance to use the word Feminist.

I am not adverse to "new" language being added to our collective vocabulary. Cisgendered, Masculine of Center, or other descriptors people choose to identify themselves as. I think we NEED more words! But in the process, do we have to downgrade and denigrate those who claim the words and descriptors already in use because they are deemed outmoded? Isn't there room at the table for all voices in the spectrum? Shouldn't there be?

About the financials, I do agree that there should be full disclosure so that these questions are not even asked. I would be fine with volunteer planners receiving an industry wide accepted amount of per diem and mileage allowance.

As to Butch Women and Feminists, you know I agree with you 100%. The table is big and should be inclusive.

What do you think about questions of whether this is more about age than Feminism?

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

[Heart]

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

[Slater]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

[OS Butch]

This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.

Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember.
The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill.
Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man.
At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC.
I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts.

OSB

[Slater]

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

Originally Posted by Slater

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[OS Butch]

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

Hey Scandalandy, if you don't really care, then why try to be "thread police"? I was the one who bought up this topic in this thread. I neither cared about the intro post nor 'directing people to it'.

It's here, we are discussing it.

Also, I am disappointed with your characterization about our discussion as a "biitch about butch voices thread". I find that language sexist and offensive. Additionally, I call-out anti-lesbian actions wherever and whenever I see it-- on the street, in a bar, anywhere. I certainly don't need to "find a thread" that you or anyone might feel is more appropriate.

It's clear that emotions are running hot on this issue. What is your motivation for being traffic cop?

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

i "identify as such".

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Slater

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

Yeah, we'll see about the "restructuring and redistributing of power and name/focus" business, maybe we will. Then, again....

Okay, let's review....

We know what is happening. We know who is doing it (including Cordova). The only thing left to explore is the why of it.

I think the WHY OF IT goes to the core of Heart's post about leadership and "women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart is absolutely right. The issues she's raises are huge and not for the faint of heart. (No pun intended.)

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[BullDog]

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it....

Because we're suppose to be big tent people and just assimilate into other people's world view and characterizations of us, silly.

Talking among ourselves about issues of importance to us in a space of our own - how exclusive and discriminatory.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

I am no accountant, however, to ME their P&L's seem pretty detailed. I have looked at other transparent sites to try and compare, and mind you, I am no math whiz, but, theirs do seem to give a more accurate breakdown than most I have seen.

When I made a statement about them and their "non-profit/ not-for-profit" status, I mistakenly misread or misinterpreted what At Last had posted leading me to believe they were claiming to be of that tax exempt status. When I read Goldberg's press release ( which, btw, it always bothers me when someone reports "news" about themselves in third person) she clearly states that they are NOT not-for-profit. The "legal" standing or issues hinted at in At Last's post, was a comment Goldberg made referring to BV's legal standing in asking the volunteer members to sign a non-disclosure/ non-compete contract.

In so far as the telephone,hotel, car, travel, etc expenses, I would be willing to guess they are related to, at least in part, the Regional Symposiums they produce/host. From looking at the site, it appears they do a great deal of hands on out-reach involving different media and different cities across the country. These symposiums generate the majority of their income. They do not set up and run themselves. People are usually sent to events as supervisory roles or representatives or educators/speakers and just as the average working class person can't afford what persons in a better financial bracket might, the extra expense of a trip across country to try to carry the word may be a part of the budget built in by their board, in that BV carries the cost of the members who go "host" these events. I am not a member or board member there so I am simply guessing based on my experience on other boards/ groups, that this is not unheard of or even of questionable ethics.

As to the lack of a line item for "scholarships", there is none. However, they do clearly state on their Financial assistance page ...

"A NOTE ON FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE:
BUTCH Voices is an amazing organization, hoping to put on an amazing conference. While we are able to offer assistance, our funds are not limitless. We have a set budget for financial assistance (we would be happy to share that with you if you are interested in seeing it)."

From the format of their P&L's, I would assume that where a "budget" exists, an actual current and prior also exist. I would also assume that the choice to not post that in their P&L may come from privacy issues with the recipients of those awards.

I m not exactly sure why all of this ( your post) felt pointed toward me, I am sure part of it is just venting. I would like to point out that all I said is that their spreadsheets appear very transparent and clear to me and that IF they are a not for profit, they should consider declaring that. If they have what you view as some sort of discrepancies in their reporting perhaps they are lumping those costs into categories that the details of which are handled in an accountants journal. Who knows??? This "feels" to me very icky. I mean, seriously, our own transparent financials don't even include last years Reunion. At least, as far as I can tell. I've looked through a few admin oriented threads and just can't seem to find it, perhaps I am just missing it. So, I, can't attempt to second guess how their Board has decided to record/ post their business. So, moving on...

The biggest issue I have with it ALL... is that it just feels like once again plain ole butch dykes ( and generally speaking their femme partners/ spouses by affiliation) are being cast aside. It is not just there that it is happening. It is happening all over the LGBTQIA ( is that all of it?) community.

Scandal Andy... my describing MY butch experience(s) is very much a LESBIAN discussion. Here, I'll toss in a leap if it makes you more comfy... LEAP! Sometimes we lesbians Leap for Joy... Sometimes we jump up and down to be heard as our... OUR VOICES are being strangled as much by our own "allies" as those other people we like to THINK oppress and erase us. Even on this site I have seen "lesbian sex" referred to as boring while accolades were strewn for hetero-sex. Interesting, no? Where the hell are we going as a queer community when we are blatantly criticizing lesbian sex over the newly ( and creepily in my world) preferred hetero-sex? This is just an example and not a jumping on someone for some other thread thing.

I apologize if my need to self reveal/ self discover read to you as a defining of butch. I am really, as always, just trying to wrap my head around all of this
ever changing stuff. It is just how I process. In my life experience, just mine mine mine... to be Butch was to be Lesbian. Perhaps that might help you get where I was coming from. It ( heh, the definition of Butch) HAS changed.