Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th - Page 8

betenoire · 09-08-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

Right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

If you weren't trying to shut the evil non lesbian down - what WERE you trying to accomplish, exactly?

Anyway, because I like Medusa (and ONLY because I like Medusa) I am going to just completely ignore you now.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

I have never said or implied anything even remotely close regarding the part of what you said in bold. I feel that is a huge exaggeration and has nothing to do with anything I have said. I have never said lesbians can do no wrong or that Olivia Cruises is perfect. I also haven't charged anyone with being a lesbophobe in this conversation.

I don't think ANYONE should be treated badly at their docks. Some of the communication coming from higher ups is also troubling. Then there was a statement from I believe their Vice President on another butch femme website saying something completely different. That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

The_Lady_Snow · 09-08-2010, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

Greyson · 09-08-2010, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

Greyson · 09-08-2010, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color and it feels very much the same way. Kicked out, judged harshly based on outward appearance. Forget what is on the inside and one's actions.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully, I get that not all in the Butch-Femme, Femme-Butch Community identify as Lesbians. What I don't understand clearly is how does Olivia Cruises decide if one is a Lesbian or not? What if you are masculine appearing, and/or acting? Does this automatically put you outside the definition of Lesbian? How does Olivia and/or their clients make such a determination?

To me it is similar to how light or dark is your skin color. That may offend some this comparison but I am a POC and have also experienced oppression based on skin tone, color.

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Greyson · 09-08-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

Sorry Greyson, I honestly am not following. Butches and other females with masculine appearances who do not identify as butches go on Olivia Cruises all the time.

It was a butch femme website owner who decided to hold a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise ship, knowing that not everyone identifies as a lesbian.

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully thanks for responding. I do believe you are trying to give me a genuine response and I also think some of the communication going on here is just missing one anothers points.

That being said, I am not convinced that it is the site owners responsibility to verify and/or divulge the self identity of each person from that site. (Believe me, this is not a based on my like or dislike of the owner.) I just think it is the responsiblity of each individual to spend some time thinking about who they are. Why does each individual identify the way that they do? Then it is a responsible aciton to try and give the same respect, that each person with their self defined identity would like to recieve from all others.

Yes, this may sound to simplistic but at some point the LGBTQI community has got to understand that for much of our community we share a similar historical context in many parts of the world.

I do agree it's not the responsibility of a site owner to divulge the identities of everyone, however I don't know why someone planning a butch femme event would book a cruise on a lesbian cruise ship. If there was a cruise planned for trans people I don't think it would be appropriate for me to go as part of a butch femme party on board because I would feel I was intruding on trans people's space who were expecting to go on a cruise with other trans people. A ship is kind of different than say a hotel.

I think the Olivia Cruise line staff needs a lot of training on gender identities and issues for sure. I also understand many have connections to the lesbian community who themselves are not lesbian and do want to participate in lesbian events at times and I do think that's great. I do also support woman's only space. So how this all gets resolved is hard to say but I do think you make good points.

Thank you for the dialogue Greyson. I do always enjoy conversing with you.

The_Lady_Snow · 09-08-2010, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

Originally Posted by BullDog

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Originally Posted by BullDog

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO this is what you said... You made a sweeping generalization and that is fucking unfair and wrong and rude. OH and unjust!!

Sad but true, those were *your* words.

Like I said earlier any fucking time trans issues come about or are talked about the same shit happens and the whole divisive us vs them shit starts.

It's ridiculous at this point and oh so telling.

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.

The_Lady_Snow · 09-08-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.

Jesus Christ.

How are you being treated like shit? I don't get how each time this particular topic comes up you come off as the wounded one I really don't. Yet you can say hurtful things.

I find that to be odd and well unbalanced.

The reality is, in my experience with Olivia and dealing with their customer service, they DO NOT want trans folks there. Awesome!! It's their business but my politics will not allow and where I stand with queer issues will also not allow this kind of discrimination.

That's me.

The end. How you can't see that it's shitty of gay folk to do to eachother I don't know.

I won't be back for a bit so I am not ignoring you if I don't post but pineapple poi got my attention.

Kobi · 09-08-2010, 02:39 PM

Sometimes I wonder if I am on the same planet as some of the rest of you.

Olivia is a travel agency. It charters boats for specific purposes. The crew comes with the boat. The crew are not employees of Olivia. It books resorts for certain groups. The resort provides the staffing, not Olivia. Is it possible people who have encountered issues might not have been dealing with Olivia personnel? I dont know, do you?

Olivia might like to cater to a certain clientel in our community. I dont see anything like that in writing but the cost might indicate it.

Olivia does say they cater to women and particularly lesbians. It is their right to do so. If one have a problem with this, its ok but others dont have a problem with it. Dont like the policy, dont use the cruise line.

I, for one, do not see what the issue is about Olivias response saying trans persons may encounter problems. First of all, I dont know what exactly was asked in the first place. How one phrases a question will usually elicit the response one is looking for. It seemed to me, from the response, a question was asked about trans persons on their lesbian cruises. Nowhere in the response did I see trans persons are not allowed or welcomed. What I saw was a clear statement that indicated at some point, some trans persons did encounter problems with some of the other vacationers. Is it reasonable to expect a tour to police 1800 passengers? Is it reasonable for people who spent a small fortune to go on a lesbian cruise to be a tad upset? Heck we dont have 1800 members yet and look at some of the stuff we go thru.

I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock.

Medusa, I applaud you for being mindful of YOUR clientel and for being thougtful as to appropriate locations and such to ensure a good outcome for participants.

I do have a problem, however, when you indicate Bull did not show an appropriate amount of outrage at what was said to occur on a dock.
It seems to me, that respecting people, is about respecting commonalities and differences. Not everyone thinks alike, subscribes to the same politics, or responds in the same way. Some are more expressive, some are more controlled. Bull strikes me as a thoughtful but controlled person.

We seem to talk a lot about respecting others but have no problem giving out verbal lashings when people dont think like we do, respond in the way we expect, have the same issues with something as we do, or express outrage in the form we expect. Is that respectful? Is that honoring diversity?

BTW, I just finished watching the movie Speed 2 where a cruise ship runs amok. I think I'll stay on land.

Gayla · 09-08-2010, 02:40 PM

I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gayla

I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.

Me either.

Words · 09-08-2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I really am sick of how I get treated. So you can give me the thumbs down if you want. I have been treated like shit in this thread for no good reason.

I thought the convo was getting back on track.

Thanks again Greyson for the convo.

And here we go again.

WHERE have you been treated like shit BullDog?

See, this is how it goes. You say something. Someone doesn't agree with you. And all of a sudden, we're all guilty of lesbophobia/femaleID'd phobia/BullDogphobia/whatever.

Ugh.

Words

Toughy · 09-08-2010, 02:48 PM

So 3 different members of this site had two very different experiences on an Olivia Cruise...Blaze and Isadora/citybutch.

Looking around on Olivia's website I see plenty o masculine looking lesbians.

The dash site is having a Cruise on Olivia. The confrontation over that on that website has been moved over here. The management and the customer service folks from Olivia have made conflicting statements (out of both sides of their mouth) about who is and is not welcome on an Olivia Cruise. Not that I give two shits, however I do agree with Bully that holding a b/f/t website gathering on a lesbian cruise just plain makes no sense at all. However it certainly is within their right to do so.

What troubles me is we have allowed that animosity to pit us against each other HERE. I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise.

I support Olivia's right to determine who gets on the Cruises, just like I support Mich Fest's right to determine who comes to their women's music festival. That does not mean I would be in attendance, it just means I believe they have right to do so.

It doesn't mean I would not suggest that Olivia might want to re-think their business model and perhaps hold a trans-queer-lesbian cruise once in a while. Maybe they could create more new business for themselves...the number of folks with a grand or two to use for a vacation is dwindling.

BullDog · 09-08-2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

The end. How you can't see that it's shitty of gay folk to do to eachother I don't know.

I do think it's shitty and I said so several times.

09-08-2010, 02:48 PM	#159
Toughy Senior Member How Do You Identify?: pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?: see above Relationship Status: independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oakland Posts: 1,826 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,068 Thanked 7,652 Times in 1,522 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	So 3 different members of this site had two very different experiences on an Olivia Cruise...Blaze and Isadora/citybutch. Looking around on Olivia's website I see plenty o masculine looking lesbians. The dash site is having a Cruise on Olivia. The confrontation over that on that website has been moved over here. The management and the customer service folks from Olivia have made conflicting statements (out of both sides of their mouth) about who is and is not welcome on an Olivia Cruise. Not that I give two shits, however I do agree with Bully that holding a b/f/t website gathering on a lesbian cruise just plain makes no sense at all. However it certainly is within their right to do so. What troubles me is we have allowed that animosity to pit us against each other HERE. I doubt very seriously Jack and Dusa would hold a gathering for us on a lesbian cruise. I support Olivia's right to determine who gets on the Cruises, just like I support Mich Fest's right to determine who comes to their women's music festival. That does not mean I would be in attendance, it just means I believe they have right to do so. It doesn't mean I would not suggest that Olivia might want to re-think their business model and perhaps hold a trans-queer-lesbian cruise once in a while. Maybe they could create more new business for themselves...the number of folks with a grand or two to use for a vacation is dwindling. __________________ We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate www.butchfemmesocials.com/

09-08-2010, 02:39 PM	#155
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,635 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	Sometimes I wonder if I am on the same planet as some of the rest of you. Olivia is a travel agency. It charters boats for specific purposes. The crew comes with the boat. The crew are not employees of Olivia. It books resorts for certain groups. The resort provides the staffing, not Olivia. Is it possible people who have encountered issues might not have been dealing with Olivia personnel? I dont know, do you? Olivia might like to cater to a certain clientel in our community. I dont see anything like that in writing but the cost might indicate it. Olivia does say they cater to women and particularly lesbians. It is their right to do so. If one have a problem with this, its ok but others dont have a problem with it. Dont like the policy, dont use the cruise line. I, for one, do not see what the issue is about Olivias response saying trans persons may encounter problems. First of all, I dont know what exactly was asked in the first place. How one phrases a question will usually elicit the response one is looking for. It seemed to me, from the response, a question was asked about trans persons on their lesbian cruises. Nowhere in the response did I see trans persons are not allowed or welcomed. What I saw was a clear statement that indicated at some point, some trans persons did encounter problems with some of the other vacationers. Is it reasonable to expect a tour to police 1800 passengers? Is it reasonable for people who spent a small fortune to go on a lesbian cruise to be a tad upset? Heck we dont have 1800 members yet and look at some of the stuff we go thru. I dont understand how one would not pursue getting their money back if they were stranded at the dock for the reasons they indicated. I suspect a simple complaint to the better business bureau and the local newspapers consumer affairs people would have resulted in a quick refund. Not pursuing this makes me wonder what actually happened at the dock. Medusa, I applaud you for being mindful of YOUR clientel and for being thougtful as to appropriate locations and such to ensure a good outcome for participants. I do have a problem, however, when you indicate Bull did not show an appropriate amount of outrage at what was said to occur on a dock. It seems to me, that respecting people, is about respecting commonalities and differences. Not everyone thinks alike, subscribes to the same politics, or responds in the same way. Some are more expressive, some are more controlled. Bull strikes me as a thoughtful but controlled person. We seem to talk a lot about respecting others but have no problem giving out verbal lashings when people dont think like we do, respond in the way we expect, have the same issues with something as we do, or express outrage in the form we expect. Is that respectful? Is that honoring diversity? BTW, I just finished watching the movie Speed 2 where a cruise ship runs amok. I think I'll stay on land.

09-08-2010, 02:40 PM	#156
Gayla Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Kinky Butch Top Preferred Pronoun?: I'm not picky Relationship Status: She makes me dance like a fool and forget how to breathe. Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: SF CA Posts: 3,229 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 877 Thanked 7,077 Times in 1,966 Posts Rep Power: 0	I really don't understand how a conversation about Olivia's policy of excluding transpeople has turned into yet another thread about Bulldog.