June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by aishah

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nomad, I feel the irritation, anger, dismissal when June Cleaver is held as a Femme role model. It's not the kink/dynamics/role playing that is the issue.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Nomad, I feel the irritation, anger, dismissal when June Cleaver is held as a Femme role model. It's not the kink/dynamics/role playing that is the issue.

(nodding --- thinking --- nodding --- thinking harder)

ow. my brain. ow.

[princessbelle]

I know you didn't ask me Nomad but i'm going to still tell you my view since i agree with Aishah....

From MY viewpoint, i only get my panties twirling when someone says something like...

"The 50s were the best era we ever had"
"We don't have manners now like we did in the 50s"
"I wish we could go back and have lives like we did in the 50s"
"June Cleaver was the perfect femme"

On the flip side if someone says...

"I enjoy living my life as June Cleaver"
"I want my partner to be just like June Cleaver"
"I love being a housewife"

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Gosh, why would i even care? To each his/hys/her own.

I don't care how anyone lives their life. The difference is ...we have choices as to how to live our lives in 2012. Thanks to the women before us. The ones that stood up for women and women's rights and minority rights and and and... We didn't in the 1950s

There is a difference here. One that i have been not great, evidently, of conveying.

Not sure i still am. Just don't know how to explain it any better.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Holy heck i am cross posting on the Planet.

i realized i probably should have posted this here!





i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.

i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently.

By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through.

In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored.
__________________

ETA Maybe this is my kink?

I understand choice. I don't understand any type of support for discrimination..... however,

I always viewed the adoption of such things more as a type of fetishism. Fetish doesn't have to be tangible, although can be. It's a set of behaviors, rituals and maybe "things" that unlock a desired state of being or passionate response. Ain't nothing wrong with this or role-play for that matter. It becomes empowering because YOU own it, it doesn't own you or dictate rules.

I think June Clever was a hardcore female supremacist who made her husband wear panties under his suit. She used her feminine magic to subliminally control her family. She also cuckolded her husband by having a beautiful black man at her disposal. This is why she was always happy and smiling.

[aishah]

nomad, i can't tell you what you should do. i can tell you what i try to do in my own life. i can tell you some of how i think things could go differently in these kinds of conversations (having seen at least 3 of them here on the planet and a few elsewhere).

please forgive me because i'm having trouble getting across really what i want to express in a clear and concise way. so i'm hoping that this will at least...paint something of a picture. i just don't have the right words. and this might get super long.

in my own life, i try to actively interrogate my desires and figure out where my desires and choices are coming from. i'm not implying that anyone here hasn't done that - i'm sure you and others have. for me that's a big part of how i come to characterize what i desire and what i love doing and what my role is. some things i've become conscious of - i tend to end up with straight bio-men a lot and i think some of that is because of internalized homophobia and because of the fact that i often pass as straight/have mad femme invisibility going on. i also tend to end up with white people a lot and i have recognized that maybe some of that is internalized racism and colonialism on my part. the more i interrogate those things in my own life, i see new worlds opening up to me - both in terms of externally how i interact and internally with my self-awareness. when i first became involved in bdsm, i identified very strongly with the term "slave," and as i came to interrogate how i felt about that, i personally chose to stop using that term because it squicked me out. as a person with a disability, i try to actively be conscious about who i'm dating and what the privileges are around ability, and especially to not unconsciously isolate people who have more access needs or more advanced disabilities from my life as dating partners. because most of the dating scene self-selects for people who are more able-bodied. same goes for beauty/appearance. when i am in power exchange relationships, i am much more aware now of the ways in which privilege affects power dynamics - like, for me as an indigenous disabled woman to submit to an able-bodied white male doesn't come without a lot of (usually unexamined) baggage. doesn't mean i never play with able-bodied white men (though i have many friends who choose not to) but as i've interrogated these issues more and more over time and examined what the dynamics look like, i've been more able to recognize and address the ways that my relationships replicate patterns of privilege and oppression that are really harmful.

those are some examples of how i practice interrogating my own desires and trying to root out how privilege and oppression shape my desires.

what i wish would be different when people start talking about service submission is - i wish we could leave the goddamned 1950s out of it. or at least, if we are going to mention the 1950s at all, to do so with a framework that is critical and takes into account the whole and complex history, not just the upper class white people history. i wish people wouldn't say things like "people had much better manners then!" "those were the good old days!" i love baking and cooking and cleaning. i love homemaking. if i weren't poor and if i could have kids, i'd probably be a very happy homemaker. but i don't need to look at the 1950s and idealize the 1950s - and i can't idealize them for many reasons i've already said. there are a LOT of ways to characterize service submission without deferring to a time period that was even more overtly pervaded with white supremacy, ableism, colonialism, and misogyny/partriarchy than the time period we live in now. and honestly, i think it's a good idea for people who are into service submission to interrogate how patriarchy and other issues have shaped their desires, but that's just me. i wish that people - and not just me and snow (and i am super grateful for folks like belle and bully who speak up on these threads too) would speak up and say that the 1950s should NOT be the yardstick by which we talk about service submission. or homemaking. because that's whitewashing and it's oppressive and it's a million different kinds of fucked up. i wish we would get the categories changed on sites like collarme where "1950s lifestyle" is something you can choose as a kink. because the things that non-white and poor people went through in the 50s are not kinks. they are crimes against humanity. i wish i could go to a munch and not be the only non-white, non-upper class person in the room and not have to sit through discussions on how awesome the 1950s lifestyle is and not feel excluded because i don't live a very heteronormative life.

i wish - and i don't want to say this in a directive way or offend anyone by saying this - but i really wish that people would not say "oh, i love the june cleaver lifestyle!" or "oh, i love a femme who loves the june cleaver lifestyle!" i can't explain to you why it hurts more to see a butch write that, because i'm attracted to both butches and femmes, but it hurts me when butches and transguys point to straight women and call them femmes or speak of them as femme icons or say that they want a femme who does those things. i don't want to be compared to june cleaver. maybe i should just be grateful that it's a good way to weed people out - like - i guess i can assume we won't see eye to eye so i might as well not bother pursuing anything with someone if they think that way. but it sucks to come here and read posts like that. it makes me feel disrespected as a femme. (your mileage may vary and i'm not saying everyone needs to do what i want - i'm just saying - that's how it makes me feel. ~ edited to add: i think part of this for me is that i'm squicked anytime someone says stuff like that...like...i don't want to be compared to angelina jolie anymore than i want to be compared to june cleaver. i want someone to want -me.- for who -i- am.)

i wish that we could have these conversations without people saying things about feeling policed when poc bring up issues of privilege and oppression. i'm not sure if there is something that i could do differently as far as how i respond to posts to make people feel less attacked or policed - or if it is just another replication of the fucked up "scary woman of color" derail all over again. but i wish we could address issues of privilege and oppression without anyone feeling silenced.

i am so, so, so very happy that people are able to look at things and make choices about what they want and choose certain ways of being without feeling coerced. i remember when i covered for several years that for me that was a huge part of my decision - for me covering wasn't heteronormative because it was claiming my identity as a queer muslim woman. it was coming home to myself and my body. BUT...i also had to interrogate the privileges i had to make that choice without feeling coerced, and the fact that i made that choice with less or different kinds of baggage/history attached to covering than many women who were raised muslim or from other countries. i had to interrogate the fact that that decision is tied to a patriarchal history even though women of all backgrounds now do their best to make free decisions themselves to cover. i had to interrogate the fact that as a lightskinned u.s. citizen, for me to wear a headscarf or a face veil would be a totally different experience than perhaps that of an immigrant with darker skin. perhaps that is a good parallel to this situation. i am so, so happy that there are people who can freely make the choice to live a lifestyle of service submission. but i think that it is good to be conscious and critical and investigate (especially when the 1950s are brought up) all of the things that tie into that, historically and presently, particularly race, class and ability issues.

[easygoingfemme]

I thought it might be a good time for a little history lesson field trip

It was touch on earlier, how the attitude towards women of the 50s was in many ways a backlash to the independence and power that women held in the 40s. I was doing a little research on this today and found some fun videos that show the transition from women in the work force during the war, to how they were viewed by men when they came home from war and the women still wanted to work.

Starting with a rather cheesy but telling portrayal of how women's work was valued, respected, and needed in the 40s


Then an interesting radio interview with an unmarried woman who wanted to continue on her career path post WWII:


And then, the short film, The Trouble with Women. Which is interesting because it shows the direct management attitude that I'm sure most women face when remaining in the work force, but also his rather radical supervisor who is standing up for the women...

[tantalizingfemme]

I wanted to be like:

Catwoman
The Bionic Woman
Daisy Duke
Laura Ingalls Wilder
Lucy
Mary Tyler Moore
Claire Huxtable
Mrs Walton
Eva Gabor on Green Acres
And June Cleaver

Why?

Catwoman - I loved her outfit and she kicked ass....
The Bionic Woman - She was strong and The Bionic Man liked her (Plus there was cool music when she did stuff)
Daisy Duke - All the boys liked her
Lucy - She was funny and when she cried, she made a funny face and was loud.
Mary Tyler Moore - I wanted to twirl and throw my hat just like her, and I loved her apartment
Claire Huxtable - She was beautiful, smart, she loved her family, her husband adored her and I loved how she dressed.
Mrs. Walton - She was kind and understanding, she was patient and loving
Eva Gabor (Lisa) - I loved her accent, clothes and craziness. And, her husband adored her.

And June Cleaver - She had it all together. She made sure her family had breakfast in the morning, she always looked nice, her focus was on her family and making sure everyone was taken care of.

And me: I am a culmination of all and more. I never saw June as the ideal Femme, I saw her as the ideal Mom and wife when I was young.

I grew up in a two parent household - my father worked and my mother stayed home with us; the neighborhood I grew up in, this was the the norm. My mother had dinner on the table every night for my Dad and did all of the house chores and laundry and such. My dad mowed the lawn, cleaned the pool and barbecued.

I love the idea that cooking, cleaning and doing laundry can make everyone so happy. I mean, isn't that what the idea was? I really am drawn to this. As a kid I saw this as being part of a happy household and as an adult, I feel a sense of satisfaction knowing that all of the basic needs for those I love are met. Is this the only way I get satisfied in life? Not by a long shot, but it is quick and easy the the results are fast.

I would have, and still would LOVE to be a stay at home partner; I really would. Do I believe that it would totally satisfy me, no. But I do know that I would find enjoyment in it. I also am going to be honest and say that this most likely has to do with the fact that I have been working since I was 15 and a single parent for 18+ years and have not had anything close to the June Cleaver life. Maybe it is just the case of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the septic tank"... (I do so love Erma Bombeck)

So anyway.....for me, if someone chooses to be June... enjoy, I support you. Someone saying they love that or hate that doesn't affect me personally... that is their ideal, and their ideal isn't my ideal, even if it is similar. I am a third wave feminist... your choice makes me happy, as long as you don't impose your choices on me.


TF


PS:
I want to change gearsfor a second and address something brought up that I absolutely abhor (which has been mentioned in numerous other posts) is the "ideal femme" represented by a straight woman. (This is not about behaviors because I don't see behaviors as straight or femme or queer or alien, I see it is a person's behavior)... I am talking about the ideal femme's appearance being represented by pictures of straight women. WTF!!!! I find this so insultingthat it makes me have that little gaggy feeling in my throat. The thread on the site (I can't remember the name) is chock full of pictures of mostly straight women and it feels like a slap in the face...and to add insult to injury is the ooohing and aaaahing and she is so hot..... blech. I couldn't imagine a thread for femmes to celebrate butches/Ftm's, etc....filled with pictures of shirtless straight male models and actors and then femmes coming in and talking how hot their chests are and the rock hard abs blah blah blah.

ok rant over....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Isn't it gross how they asked her about romance novels? Would anyone ever ask these questions of a man?? How about when they guys analyzed her like she as a lab rat?

UGH!

The second film it drives me nuts how the woman (sitting) plays dumb

[femmsational]

I wish I had speakers

[girl_dee]

"how confident are you in dealings with your superiors?"

= all the men

[blush]

Originally Posted by Nomad

okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by blush

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

Your last paragraph really makes me sad. I don't believe she is expecting you/us to teach her, she is asking for guidance and perhaps maybe a bit of understanding of where she is coming from.

What has happened that we forget, that once we had mentors and teachers, those same people who before us were/are femme's. Were it not for all those beautiful Femme's guiding me, I might still be stuck 30 years ago.

The only message you have conveyed is shame. And that's really sad. Especially coming from another Femme. How's 50's and ironic.
Julie

[blush]

Originally Posted by Julie

Your last paragraph really makes me sad. I don't believe she is expecting you/us to teach her, she is asking for guidance and perhaps maybe a bit of understanding of where she is coming from.

What has happened that we forget, that once we had mentors and teachers, those same people who before us were/are femme's. Were it not for all those beautiful Femme's guiding me, I might still be stuck 30 years ago.

The only message you have conveyed is shame. And that's really sad. Especially coming from another Femme. How's 50's and ironic.
Julie

Not shame, personal responsibility. As I said in my post, I think nomad comes from an honest place. I know our femme community will lead in that direction because that's how we roll. Teaching and mentoring is not a passive sport, and requesting a community to "educate/guide you" on issues comes with expectations. Why shouldn't it?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by blush

Not shame, personal responsibility. As I said in my post, I think nomad comes from an honest place. I know our femme community will lead in that direction because that's how we roll. Teaching and mentoring is not a passive sport, and requesting a community to "educate/guide you" on issues comes with expectations. Why shouldn't it?

You and I simply see things differently. I read your tone as being sharp and with a lack of empathy.

We also see teaching/mentoring quite different. For me, it is part of life and part of my responsibility as a Femme/Person - for you, it is a sport. I understand now, where your sharpness comes from.

[aishah]

from my previous interactions with nomad, i have the basic assumption that she explores this stuff on her own as well as through here. i could be wrong. i don't mind being asked to elaborate (especially with the caveat that she doesn't expect me to - i didn't feel pressured by her post as i have in other conversations here about education).

the only thing i found difficult was the phrasing of "tell me what to do" - i think, especially when oppression issues come up, people want to be told what to do. i know i definitely experience that sometimes. the idea that there's an easy answer and or a rulebook or something. unfortunately, usually, there isn't, and i don't think anyone wants to (or should) be in the position of telling others what to do. life just doesn't work that way - you have to fuck up and learn on your own. but i can share what's worked for me in my own experience. that doesn't mean it'll work for everyone.

[Julie]

I agree aishah... It was a trigger for me as well (Tell me what to do) and I stopped myself from reacting. Oftentimes we pick phrases/words from a post (especially a long post) and skim the rest.

You obviously in your life have mentored.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

[Chancie]

Nomad, I don't have the extra long post gene, so my responses can seem terse, but I def don't mean to be curt.

For me, using 'June Cleaver' as a gender marker is the whole problem, not the desire to cook, or iron, or be an excellent homemaker. She represents a female persona and an era that was terrible for a lot of people, whether or not we choose to ignore history and context.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

Because I do like to take care of and fuss over Pete, and because I like to be the girl who bought the best present for a little girl, and because I like to bring the best treats to pot lucks, not because I am a femme, but because I am ChanciePants, I feel silenced and alienated when other femmes say they aspire to being, not modern but old fashioned June Cleavers. I think, Oh, very nice if you're pretty, thin, middle class and white, and not a feminist. I feel like they aggressively choose to dismiss feminism and women's rights.