Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[The_Lady_Snow]

I thought I had, I simply want to be treated as I treat others. I don't walk out the door with no other intent than having a good day, being friendly, polite, kind, work hard, go to the kiddo's boxing, do my walk and sweat and curse cause it's hot. WITHOUT some ass hat being grossed out or look like they are cause of who I am.

I could even throw in there that as a woman I want my space and place to be equally valid if not more valid than the guy next to me who gets it just cause he's a guy.

Sometimes I think I'm expecting to much when I try to take my place in the world but I'll be damned if I won't take it it's mine and my right. I don't just want it for me me me, I want it for alll women, childrens, queers, geeks, underdogs, poor, forgotten people out there.

Sounds kinda corny huh?

It would be nice to not be treated differently because of the gay. I'm still thinking and typing.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I thought I had, I simply want to be treated as I treat others. I don't walk out the door with no other intent than having a good day, being friendly, polite, kind, work hard, go to the kiddo's boxing, do my walk and sweat and curse cause it's hot. WITHOUT some ass hat being grossed out or look like they are cause of who I am.

I could even throw in there that as a woman I want my space and place to be equally valid if not more valid than the guy next to me who gets it just cause he's a guy.

Sometimes I think I'm expecting to much when I try to take my place in the world but I'll be damned if I won't take it it's mine and my right. I don't just want it for me me me, I want it for alll women, childrens, queers, geeks, underdogs, poor, forgotten people out there.

Sounds kinda corny huh?

It would be nice to not be treated differently because of the gay. I'm still thinking and typing.

Okay but since we cannot *force* people to behave that way, what then? Are you saying that until any person you encounter, anyone particular person taken at random, is utterly unconcerned with your being gay or Latina, etc. we will not have reached--not the best imaginable place--but the best *achievable* place? Again, I can imagine a perfect world but I cannot drag all the rest of you into it and, trust me, many of you would NOT like my perfect world. Since I can't have a perfect world and since no one else can either and since history is quite literally bloody with all the attempts to create utopias, I want to aim for the best achievable world.

That's why I keep coming back to this idea that we cannot have a world where your neighbors are simply *incapable* of giving you the stink-eye. It appears you want to live in a world without bigots. While that would be nice, I see no way to get there. I do see a way to get there through creating laws and processes that treat people equally. No bias and no favor. Since that is *also* not possible for humans, the law should be as non-biased as limited humans can manage.

I'm trying to deal with the world as it is, with the human species we have to work with. We cannot make a world where no person is poor. Poverty is relative at any rate and unless we make certain that everyone has the same outcomes--a prospect very few would willingly sign on for--there will always be *some* people who have less resources than others. What we *can* do is have a society where people are treated fairly and equally. Where people have access to those things that allow oneself to be economically empowered--things like education, laws to protect one from workplace exploitation or bigotry.

All societies are a series of trade-offs. So what does this society you wish for look like? What are the trade-offs? What are you willing to give up in order to have a society wherein your neighbors are simply not *capable* of being anti-gay? Or anti-anything for that matter?

And no, it doesn't sound corny, Snowy. It sounds vague. So you want some asshat to not *appear* to be grossed out when he looks at you. So what does that world look like? Is that a world where he simply does not think--because the category is foreign to him--"there is a homosexual, I don't like that"? Or is it a world wherein he dare *not* think that thought for fear of the consequences? Or is it a world where the thought is not thinkable? Or where it's expression is what; illegal? Socially unacceptable?

Walk me through this, Snowy. In your world, please explain how this works:

1) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you. What does he do?

2) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you and sneers. What happens then?

In your world CAN your neighbor think a thought that is anti-gay? If he can't, why can't he? if he can, what are the consequences of him doing so. You say this is your right to have this. So what does a world in which your right is protected look like?

Cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm going to give this some thought A LOT to be exact I'll be back laters it's late (kinda) and there's still stuff for tomorrow that needs to be done (kids take up A LOT of time) thanks Aj for the push to keep thinking.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

Thank you for this. These are the questions I think we have to address as a community. It is one thing to say "queer people should be free" it is another thing to determine what freedom is and to understand our part of the bargain. As a nation, we've become so accustomed to asking the question "what's in it for me" while ignoring that the other woman is probably asking herself the same question. Once we recognize that others also have agendas and that your agenda and my agenda may not be identical we can then start doing politics. Politics is the art of the possible. Not the ideal. The possible.

Your examples are precisely the kinds of trade-offs that I think we, as a community, need to start asking ourselves.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs.

To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier.

Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people".

Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them.

As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this.

On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with.

As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag.

I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting challenge Aj. Life is a series of negotiations and trade offs.

To answer the first part about gaining acceptance, to me, people are afraid of stuff they dont know or understand. It was always important to me to just live my life as I would regardless of who I slept with. Where I live made it a lot easier.

Most of the folks who had an issue with my queerness harbored a lot of misconceptions about who queers are. They didnt or didnt think they knew any gay people cuz the people they knew didnt act like "those other people".

Some folks dont like fitting in or assimilating. They see it as selling out. To me, it was and is a political statement. If people couldnt see me as the same as they were then the chances of changing their perceptions of queers were pretty slim. So, was there any harm in showing that queers got an education, worked, served on committees, took care of their elderly family, drove cars, had friendships and relationships, owned houses, did the mundane chores of existing? Not to me. The harm was them thinking or believing I was different from them.

As for trade offs and what I am willing to give up. When gay marriage became a legal option in Mass, it was a bittersweet thing to me. Nice to have the option for a legal recognition of a relationship and some "perks" that went along with this.

On the other hand, as with anything else, marriage means giving up some degree of independence and freedom. It means different expectations when dating. It means looking at relationships in a different way. It is a responsibility I gave some fantasy based thought to but now it was a reality I had to grapple with.

As for other "concession" type stuff. To me, if I want to be seen as a part of a community, I have a number of responsibilities. I may want to fly a gay pride flag from my deck. It might make me feel good to do so for any number of reasons. But, how might it impact those who live around me? Is that something I should take into account? Is it selling out or is it being mindful or respectful of others? Depends on your perspective I guess. To me, the world isnt going to stop spinning if I cant fly my flag.

I cant think of any situation where you get exactly everything you want without having some degree of trade off involved.

I can't either, Kobi. There many things that I just don't believe the world will stop spinning over if I don't have my way. And some things are just more important than others and serve building more positive relations among differing peoples.

I love my neighborhood and feel totally accepted as part of it. Exercising common courtesy as a neighbor has contributed to this- BY ALL that I share my block with. I join in with neighborhood Watch and Take Back the Night activities and meetings. I let folks know when something they do has an impact on me (like allowing their dog to bark at night), but also make changes for others when they let me know about something I do- like changing to a lower wattage porch bulb that shines into their bedroom window.

My neighbors see me sometimes in men's formal wear and a couple at first took a double take- then asked if I was going to something special. I have had more than one fruitful conversation about the B-F dynamic as a butch lesbian. I have learned that there are leather straight couples nearby that have had their own share of feeling "different" or weird.

My adjacent neighbors check on me when they see I am having major problems with my joints and pain- and call or stop by and offer to go to the store if I am not getting out. They also stop by and say "Great" when I am doing well.

My neighborhood is multi-cultural and racial, lower-middle class and working class with a couple of professionals scattered about. There are 2 lesbian couples that are main-stream lesbian and me. There are home owners and renters. Our age range is 6 months to 92 a (just lost our 94 you and a woman that was 103).

I don't go naked in my yard because my next-door neighbors have their grand kids over a lot and there is just not good privacy between our yards. I do, however, go in my spa (when it worked) nude because I built privacy around it- for myself and my neighbors. Its called respecting other people. I watch my mouth when working in the yard- which sometimes I have to remind myself, because the old couple behind me doesn't like foul language. It is just not a big deal to me to do this. They have stopped using any poison for rodents around their yard at my request. The stay at home, mother of 3 4 houses down apologized to me after Prop 8 passed in 2010 in CA. She has also talked to me about one of her sons being gay or perhaps trans and sought out support for him. I don't park my car hanging over other people's drive ways, or bang trash cans late at night because I think about my neighbors- and they return this courtesy.

Reciprocity and realizing that we all have boundaries is just important. If I had moved here and not gotten to know my neighbors or assumed that ever one of them was going to be against me or had no interest in learning who I am, I would not be very happy here at all. I don't feel like I compromise who I am at all. I feel like I am surrounded by good people that want to share who they are as well and that I am actually not all that different.

Yes, there is one man that I don't care for and have had words with. Nothing is ever perfect. And I am not the only person on earth. Nor do I want to be. I'm also not a very defensive person overall. I try not to jump to conclusions and figure out what is really going on with people.

I had a situation in which I rented a room to a queer friend in which the person had no regard for my neighbors and had to kick her out. There was no way that I was going to allow her total disregard for community cooperation to ruin my relationships with my neighbors. The compalints were numerous and well founded. This is my neighborhood and she would just be moving out eventually- I, however, will remain here and have worked hard to build relationships with these people. I had to choose between our friendship and my neighborhood. Not fun, but necessary.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Walk me through this, Snowy. In your world, please explain how this works:

1) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you. What does he do?

Well the guy across the street sneers, the lady behind us looks at us like she's smelling shit or shakes her head, the other two besides us now ignore us and keep their kids away.

2) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you and sneers. What happens then?

I say nothing, we say nothing. what can we say we can't change their minds about not liking homos and them thinking we're disgusting and going to hell.

In your world CAN your neighbor think a thought that is anti-gay? he ifcan't, why can't he? if he can, what are the consequences of him doing so. You say this is your right to have this. So what does a world in which your right is protected look like?

Cheers
Aj ___________


I moved recently from a world that was pretty good for *me* where I lived, Columbus is kind of a secret cause no one really knows what a great city it is. I never had a problem with a neighbor due to me being queer, not even when I walked out in full leathers. If something did happen the police were there, our rental place took care of it and at work it was no issue since our project manager was gay.


This new world I am living in there is rare times of acceptance, rare understanding and togetherness. This is not only cause of the queer issue I'm stuck in limbo right now because of race and class issues amongst what has gone on here. I feel tolerated but not the the point where it's accepted. Make sense?


I am at the point that I don't care what the neighbors think because I have done everything to be nice and friendly. I don't try no more it's been a year, my kid don't need to be hanging out there because frankly why would I let him? So to answer the neighbors can keep being jerks as long as I am not and I keep working on my house, taking my kid to boxing or any other sport and well packing up going to the beach. Hell even then it's problematic.


I may come back and add more I figured I would come in so it did not look like I was ignoring the questions. It may take a couple more days cause this thread is making me think a lot.

Thanks and sorry if my answers don't make sense

To me acceptance is never changing as for tolerance can and will change with conditions. I hope that changes as time goes on here, people are pretty closeted here if they are queer, they are quiet it about it and discreet I'm not used to it cause of having always lived in areas that were queer friendly.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Walk me through this, Snowy. In your world, please explain how this works:

1) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you. What does he do?

Well the guy across the street sneers, the lady behind us looks at us like she's smelling shit or shakes her head, the other two besides us now ignore us and keep their kids away.


2) You walk out your door, your neighbor sees you and sneers. What happens then?

I say nothing, we say nothing. what can we say we can't change their minds about not liking homos and them thinking we're disgusting and going to hell.

Actually, Snowy, I wasn't asking how things are *now*. I was asking, in your ideal world, in the world you were talking about having a right to, how things would be different.

You had said:

I could even throw in there that as a woman I want my space and place to be equally valid if not more valid than the guy next to me who gets it just cause he's a guy.

Sometimes I think I'm expecting to much when I try to take my place in the world but I'll be damned if I won't take it it's mine and my right. I don't just want it for me me me, I want it for alll women, childrens, queers, geeks, underdogs, poor, forgotten people out there.

What does that world look like? So in this world, where your space and place are equally if not more valid, how would things be different with your neighbors? What would that look like? If it would be different HOW would it be different? That's why I asked if, in the world you envision, your neighbors could even *be* anti-gay and if they couldn't, why would they not be able to be?

To me acceptance is never changing as for tolerance can and will change with conditions. I hope that changes as time goes on here, people are pretty closeted here if they are queer, they are quiet it about it and discreet I'm not used to it cause of having always lived in areas that were queer friendly.

Yes, tolerance does change with conditions. But here's what I'm driving at. I do not see *how* we can have a free, open society where there is only acceptance and no need for tolerance. I agree that tolerance is learning to live next to people with whom you might disagree vehemently on one or more points. However, while several people see that as a bad thing, I see it as the *least* bad thing given the species we have to work with. IF America were both ethnically and religiously homogenous then there would, ironically, be less need for tolerance. The reason for that is that if this nation had that kind of homogeneity we would be more culturally homogeneous. But we aren't. We are ethnically and religiously pluralistic. We will *always* have a heterogeneous society and so we have to figure out how to get along with one another. Otherwise, we will rip ourselves apart.

This is where tolerance comes in. I do not have to like that which I tolerate. I just have to tolerate it. Tolerate does NOT mean that I'll put up with X until I can find some way to squash it. Rather, it means that I will let X be if X will leave me be. It most certainly does not mean trying to attack X either physically, verbally or through the law. This is why I'm curious about those who disagree with me about tolerance. If tolerance is unacceptable--and at least two people have stated that it is neither enough nor is it a good thing--what's the alternative? If acceptance is the ONLY thing, then how do we get there from here? In other words, how do people envision creating a society where tolerance doesn't happen because there is universal acceptance?

For the life of me, I cannot see how you can convince an *entire* society to accept ALL difference and treat them as irrelevant. I just don't see it. Tolerance, I think, you can teach because one can attack it from a couple of different directions. But how do you teach *acceptance* without squashing out less accepting ideas? That's why I asked the question about whether, in your best of all possible worlds, your neighbor is capable of sneering at you because you are queer. If he isn't then why isn't he? Is it because we have made it unthinkable? If so, how? Is it because we have created a society where certain facial expressions are taken as prima facie evidence of bigoted behavior? Are we, in the name of queer liberation, ready to embrace the idea of thought-crime? I don't think we should.

Because of my background in evolutionary biology, I see everything as a trade-off. There are no perfect worlds, there are no perfect animals and there are no perfect societies. Because there are always costs, it becomes important to determine what those costs are and consider whether those costs are outweighed by the benefits. So we can have a society that is largely tolerant of difference while still being open and free enough to allow for people who are *not* tolerant, provided that they do not attempt to directly threaten either individuals or the stability of the community as a whole. On the other hand, we can have a society that has no need of tolerance because everyone is accepting--or at least they behave that way--but I think we would then have a drastically less open and free society. I don't think we can have a society of universal acceptance that is free.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by June

Q: What price am I willing to pay for the same rights as heterosexual people?

A: My taxes at the same rate as they pay in the same income bracket.

Period.

June:

But that's not really the *kind* of cost I'm talking about. The kind of cost I'm trying to drive at here is what compromise are you willing to give? In my read of the Civil Rights Movement, the black community made a bargain with the majority population. We will play by the rules, go to school, work hard, etc. and in *return* we expect to be treated as citizens and people. We'll do our part if you lot will do yours. The tax issue isn't really a trade-off. WHEN our marriages are legally recognized in all states--and that will happen--we'll be obliged to pay taxes at the same rate so that's not really a *cost*. Even if it were the kind of cost I was talking about, I'm not sure that would be enough to sweeten the pot for a straight person standing on the sidelines.

What do we put on the table that will appeal to the heterosexual majority. Our demands are pretty straightforward, treat us as people and citizens. My question is what are we, as queer people, willing to give for that? Like I keep saying, there's always costs and as a community we have ignored costs for far too long.

Cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

FFS!!! I had me a fucking A-HA moment reading you 5x's!!!

Though I have to disagree about the there are no perfect animals, I think the horse is...

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

FFS!!! I had me a fucking A-HA moment reading you 5x's!!!

Though I have to disagree about the there are no perfect animals, I think the horse is...

Sorry, Snow. I have to disagree with you there. And I love horses.

I was going to put a great quote in here, and then I realized that the actual quote is "A camel is a horse designed by committee."

Regardless, having known quite a few horses in my time, if horses were the perfect animal they wouldn't need to see the vet nearly so often. And they'd be able to lay down for more than an hour or two at a time without crushing their own internal organs.

/derail

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well that's ok, cause I think they are..... I'm ok with that, but thank you I'm well educated on equine behaviours, health do's don'ts and other random stuff. I love them that much. They bring me great great amazing joy and happiness.

<I also think she's damn perfect too

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

June:

But that's not really the *kind* of cost I'm talking about. The kind of cost I'm trying to drive at here is what compromise are you willing to give? In my read of the Civil Rights Movement, the black community made a bargain with the majority population. We will play by the rules, go to school, work hard, etc. and in *return* we expect to be treated as citizens and people. We'll do our part if you lot will do yours. The tax issue isn't really a trade-off. WHEN our marriages are legally recognized in all states--and that will happen--we'll be obliged to pay taxes at the same rate so that's not really a *cost*. Even if it were the kind of cost I was talking about, I'm not sure that would be enough to sweeten the pot for a straight person standing on the sidelines.

What do we put on the table that will appeal to the heterosexual majority. Our demands are pretty straightforward, treat us as people and citizens. My question is what are we, as queer people, willing to give for that? Like I keep saying, there's always costs and as a community we have ignored costs for far too long.

Cheers
Aj

Aj, I'm not willing to compromise my basic human rights, and I don't think any of us should. Sometimes one just has to make a stand and say, here and no further. I don't feel the need to beg for my rights, I will however fight tooth and nail for them.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

See, now we're in danger of a major derail, because I also love horses, and I've desperately wanted a Fresian ever since the first time I saw Ladyhawke when I was a wee little bit.

Someday, when I've won the lottery or something and we're independently wealthy, I will have a stable full of Fresians and Gypsy Vanners.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Aj, I'm not willing to compromise my basic human rights, and I don't think any of us should. Sometimes one just has to make a stand and say, here and no further. I don't feel the need to beg for my rights, I will however fight tooth and nail for them.

That's not really what anyone is talking about, though. No one has said you should compromise on your basic human rights. What's being asked is, what are you willing to do get those rights? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they should just be able to say "I deserve it, gimme" and the people in power should just say "Oh, okay, here you go." That's a nice fantasy, but not how the universe actually works. In order to actually get those rights that we deserve, we need to get other people on our side. People like straight, conservative Christians in the midwest. Hell, even just your average, semi-religious, moderate straight person in the midwest. If we're going to make any real progress, we need more of them on our side. How do you propose we do that? We don't have the numbers to get anything by brute force. We need to convince people. What's your plan?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

That's not really what anyone is talking about, though. No one has said you should compromise on your basic human rights. What's being asked is, what are you willing to do get those rights? A lot of people seem to be under the impression that they should just be able to say "I deserve it, gimme" and the people in power should just say "Oh, okay, here you go." That's a nice fantasy, but not how the universe actually works. In order to actually get those rights that we deserve, we need to get other people on our side. People like straight, conservative Christians in the midwest. Hell, even just your average, semi-religious, moderate straight person in the midwest. If we're going to make any real progress, we need more of them on our side. How do you propose we do that? We don't have the numbers to get anything by brute force. We need to convince people. What's your plan?

I don't have a plan, don't need nor want one, and here's why, they and their approval isn't necessary for me to be me, I don't need to convince any one of my right to be, my right to marry my right to fight for my country, I just do it. I refuse to beg them for anything, if they can't be like the Christ they so solemnly proclaim then nothing I do will change their minds. These are petty jealous and ignorant people, and I don't buy into their hate and fear. The best revenge is a well lived life.

If I lived my life according to their rules, they win, I don't, and they wont.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by Corkey;408902[SIZE=4

These are petty jealous and ignorant people, and I don't buy into their hate and fear.[/SIZE]
If I lived my life according to their rules, they win, I don't, and they wont.

Well Corkey, June had the right message, VOTE. Because they are not petty jealous people. They are powerful......add what ever words you want onto that. My goodness, did you forget about Rick Santorum?...how did we get rid of him?....we voted him out. We are not in any position to go backwards.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Well Corkey, June had the right message, VOTE. Because they are not petty jealous people. They are powerful......add what ever words you want onto that. My goodness, did you forget about Rick Santorum?...how did we get rid of him?....we voted him out. We are not in any position to go backwards.

Why are you assuming I don't vote? They only power they have is the power we give them. I have in-laws who are like this, they don't have power over me, they never did and they never will. Well, Santorum is out and Corbett is in so is Mike Kelley and Pat Toomey, and I didn't vote for any of those asshats. Here's a thought stop assuming I don't vote and I am not active in Human Rights Campaign or any of the other myriad of other political and social causes shall we?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

What are we willing to pay with for acceptance

How I pay:

1 - By not acting like a horses ass.

2 - By not screaming that somebody must be a homophobe every time they don't like me (maybe I'm just not likeable, that's possible. or maybe I did something to that person unintentionally.) There will be people who don't like me because I'm Queer. Ditto there will be people who don't like me for some other reason. Since I'm not psychic I have no way of knowing which it is unless they come right out and say it - so I'm not doing me or any other Queer any favours by screaming about homophobia every time something goes wrong.

True story: I live in kind of a shitty neighborhood, for Canada. What I mean by that is while there isn't a lot of violent crime going on where I'm living, there is a TONNE of property crime. Lots of theft. When my mail or my bike gets stolen (the mail happens all the time, the bike happened once and I never got another one because why bother?) Nick immediately jumps to "They are harassing you because they hate gay people!" which is just super crazy, since we have no way of knowing who the "they" in the situation are, let alone what their motivation is.

3 - By going out of my way to be the kind of person that people tend to like, even when I don't feel like it. I smile at people strangers when I pass them on the street and I say hello and stop for small-talk with acquaintances. I run errands for the guy on the 1st floor who is ill. When other people from my building are sitting around in lawnchairs out front I pull up a chair and hang out for a bit. I give up my seat on the bus for elderly people, women with small children, people with a disability, and anybody who looks like they are tired and would rather not stand up. I help people with heaps of groceries get their groceries on and off the bus. I try to keep the noise in my apartment to a minimum. If it's late at night I turn the teevee down real low and turn on closed captioning. I pay my rent on time. And I never go into the express line at the grocery store unless I really DO have 10 items or less.

4 - By being who I am but not making a huge deal out of it. I'm not confrontational around the Queer stuff. If I'm in line at the coffee shop and someone is shit talking gay people I approach them with a SMILE and ask them to please rethink who might be listening - I never yell or call names or act like a jackass about it. You'll never catch me in a teeshirt that says "Pussy is rad!" or "I am going to fuck all of your girlfriends!" or anything like that.

and how will we know when we have finally crossed into the Promised Land?

There is no Promised Land. People are what they are and we just are not evolved enough as a species to love and respect everybody - we never will be. Some individuals are pretty good at it...but as a species? It just isn't going to happen.

I'm Canadian, as most people know. So I'm pretty freaking lucky. It's illegal to discriminate against me for my "sexual orientation" (or whatever you want to call it.) I can marry whoever I want. I can work wherever I want. I can live wherever I want. I can shop wherever I want. If we can ever get that bill to add language around not discriminating against people who are transsexual added to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms passed I will be happy as a freaking clam.

Equal rights and protections is good enough for me. But as far as how individual people feel about the Queer "community" goes - the people who love us are just gravy. The people who hate us aren't especially shocking and are not going to ruin my buzz.

[Dominique]

[QUOTE=Corkey;408916]Why are you assuming I don't vote?

There was more to her suggestion than Vote, I just didn't repeat it, as the message is the same. We have to use the power of the vote to make changes. I wasn't assuming you didn't vote.

Three big *R*'s have already signed a declaration to remove what little rights we gay folks have, we have to unite and fight the fight to be sure they do not get into office. Thats all.

SNAP.....all gone. back to the days of hiding who and what we are.

[Corkey]

I don't believe in going backwards, never have, never will, the only closet I use is the one for my cloths.