Labels

[D-Money]

Originally Posted by Diva

Though I'm still using the Mom Label.

yeah, i hear that one a lot, too ... on days when i'm really lucky!

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

I feel similarly. I appreciate labels for a couple reasons. One, they give me a starting point. They don't map out the whole entity but I've got something to start with. Secondly, my identity allowed myself to find a community, to realize there is a name for someone like me. Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me.

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.

I do agree with the Wicket- "Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me." And yes our identities is the major reason for how we all found each other here in this community in the first place.

[D-Money]

'femme' doesn't box me in ... it just doesn't fit. it's not who i am.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Diva

When I first came out, my friends were trying to set me up with one who later became my partner for 8 years.....but when she first saw me, she leaned over to our mutual friend and said, "She's not a lesbian, she's somebody's Mother!"

She got it half right. I like that label, too......

I have evolved since then..... <smile> Though I'm still using the Mom Label.

~Diva

When I was foot loose and fancy free, I saw the Diva, and did not think of it in that manner.. Maybe Holy Mother of G....Phew..or whose the hot MAMA in town...well, just sayin...that Red Dress

yer lil Punkin

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Tommi

When I was foot loose and fancy free, I saw the Diva, and did not think of it in that manner.. Maybe Holy Mother of G....Phew..or whose the hot MAMA in town...well, just sayin...that Red Dress

yer lil Punkin

What a lovely compliment! Thank You so much, precious Punkin Head!


~Diva (LOVIN' that graphic! I stole it! <giggle> )

[Leigh]

Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Looking for a descriptor would be in kind a label, no? .... Yes ?

Originally Posted by BullDog

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.

Originally Posted by Braedon

Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.

[D-Money]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.

you make some really good points ...

i think there is a definite difference between a label and a descriptor.

we can label someone "butch" ... or we can describe them as "manly", "masculine", etc.

we can label someone "femme" ... or we can describe them as "feminine", "girly", etc.

just because a queer woman is very feminine doesn't make her femme.

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I certainly agree with you. I don't find the term label to be meaningful at all. The only ways I have really ever heard it used is people asking me why I need a label or people saying they don't need a label. Well for me label has no useful meaning or connection to what my gender identity is. It simply doesn't apply.

I think of label as outside-in. People are making a determination/judgment and trying to define something/someone.

I think of gender identity as inside-out: it is something that is hard won that comes from within myself that gets presented out into the world- whether it be through presentation, finding community (like this site), like minded friends, lovers and partners that compliment my gender identity among other things, and of course the never ending journey of self discovery in all its various, multi-faceted forms. Label plays no part.

It is also very true that someone can look "butch" or look "femme" and not identify that way at all.

I also know that some people find gender identities like butch and femme to be constraining or to not adequately describe who they are. For me butch is not constraining. My personal meaning comes from within, it is not imposed from outside. However, for others butch and other gender identities might be constraining or limiting. I do understand and respect that. I just get bafffled when they equate that to having a label. I don't have a label.

[NJFemmie]

At one point, a label was something important to me - only because it seemed important for other people to categorize me. I could care less about labels now. I still use the femme label, but only for descriptive reasons. Other than that, I'm just me doing my own thing, and I am totally okay with that again.

It seemed that the label phenomenon was more of a burden. Now, I no longer feel confined or strapped to the perceptions of other people's stereotypes.

I respect everyone for who they are, no matter what they are or how they define themselves. I have always been the kind of woman who believes "be who you are and not who people expect you to be."

Thank you for listening.
<-- minus the angry rant

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by D-Money

okay, back to serious ...

for years, claiming 'femme' was very much a part of who i thought i was.

on other butch/femme sites (i don't feel the need to specify) i was that bitch who grilled non-label-lovers who came to the site claiming they didn't label themselves. "this site is for butches and femmes! if you don't identify, wtf are you doing here?! go find your own site, you ... you LESBIAN!" i didn't even realize my own need at the time to label them ... or even that i was doing it.

i was so wrapped up in how important my own label was to me that i didn't even listen to where they might have been coming from- i was blind to everything but what i perceived to be an attack on my own labeling of myself.

in light of the course of my own journey in recent years, i can see myself on the other side of that controversy. i probably deserve it ... (i really was a bitch)

You say bitch like it's not a label unto itself.

Originally Posted by Words

Well, since you're eating crackers made of poor little goldfish then you're obviously not a vegetarian, which rules out the possibility of your being a lesbian, (because everyone knows that lesbians only eat hummus and tabouleh), so...I have to wonder....

Do you only eat goldfish crackers or do you sometimes eat other types of crackers as well (in which case, you must be bi-sexual because everyone knows that bisexuals are indecisive and lack the ability to choose one type of cracker and stick with it)?

Well?

Words

You're cracking me up today!

[foxyshaman]

I really appreciate the opinions and thoughts I have read in respect to this issue, here and other places. It led me on a very interesting cruise through my own perceptions and assumptions. I appreciate anything that can make me open my eyes and see things from all sorts of angles. And I must say that the voices here have certainly opened my eyes and thoughts.

I have always been a bit leary to post in these topics because I was not sure I could contribute much 'value wise' to the discussion. And then I thought well maybe I do have another point of view that might be interesting.

I struggled for many years with my own self concept and compartmentalization of my pieces. I have struggled through the years because I felt I walked in two (and lots of times more) worlds. I did not understand why my spiritual and then shamanic work was so different from others. I experienced very masculine journeys, rituals, healings... etc. Hell I can't even build a pretty feminine altar, no wonder the witches wanted nothing to do with me!! (I hope my humor is not completely lost here ). Then I started reading a little here and there about shamans being the third gender, or the multiple gender. Being a disenfranchised no tribe white woman I had no elders to say "oh yes you feel that way because...". Instead I had books written by male dominated historical recorders clinging desperately to their binary mindset, that they seemed fairly incapable of recording the special role shamans held/hold. There is an association of gender 'difference' with supernatural powers; gender-transformed shamans were quite common.

Anyway, my long drawn out point is that I came to understand why I have called myself a tri-sexual for so many years. When I found out there was an actual term tri-sexual I was... stunned really. I am grateful for the converstations I have read discussing gender issues. We all see ourselves through different lenses. I have continued to research anthropological texts and journals discussing the two-spirits, the third genders, the fourth genders... etc.

Thanks for listening to just a few of a foxes thoughts.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Label Schmabel but if you must know I am Transgendered not FTM, YET

[suebee]

Originally Posted by D-Money

for you, Gin, this is truer than true! always has been

but it doesn't always work that way for all people ... people look at me in my feminine trappings, they may know that i am with a butch, and assume i am femme.

and they would be wrong.

i hear "of course you're femme! just look at you!"

grr ...

if i must be labeled, i already have one built in: donna

Hello Donna! I'm Sue

Originally Posted by Words

I think it goes even further than that. I would say, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to not only who you fuck, but how you fuck.

For example, I'm a femme submissive. The assumption being - as far as many are concerned - that I'm some kind of pillow princess unable to adopt anything but a totally passive role in bed. Which of course, is absolute bullshit because as a submissive, my desire is to please, not to be pleased, including sexually. So although my Top definitely calls the shots, if you will, in bed, as elsewhere, if pleasing Hym requires my pretending to be a big, bad leather daddy and fucking Hym senseless until Hy begs for mercy (which it doesn't, but hey, it could), then that is what I will do.

Pillow princess? I don't think so. Not that I have anything against those who do ID that way but do you see where I'm coming from?

Words

I dunno Words. Ever since I saw those pictures of you in butch shorts...... Jus' sayin'!

Originally Posted by D-Money

'femme' doesn't box me in ... it just doesn't fit. it's not who i am.

This resonates with me. First off, since I spent twenty years living in French, the word "femme" just means "woman" to me. My gender, but not my sexual identity. But beyond that, it just doesn't seem to fit. If ever I come up with a descriptor I'm comfortable with, I'll use it. But really the point is that I simply don't feel the need to. Believe me, it would have been easier many, many times to simply say I was femme. But if you can't be true to yourself in describing your identity........ well?

I've been asked to justify my presence in the b-f community. I'm attracted to masculine women. Other than that, should I need to justify my presence? (and obviously I'm not talking about THIS site!)

Sue

[MainelyButch]

I admit I use the label Butch for myself and I am fine with the labels/descriptors that people use for themselves. What would we call the butch-femme community be without the labels "butch" and "femme"? Now stereotyping is a totally different thing...but, I believe, that without some sort of identifier, descriptor, or label (whatever one wants to refer to it as) we would have a difficult time in conversation and in identifying one another.

Also, we call them "labels" but they are so much more sometimes. As someone else said "descriptors", or identifiers...it's like the word "label" has gotten a bad rap because we tend to associate it with stereotypes. Everyone is different, sot he stereotypes don't work across the board, but the "labels" can be much more versatile, in my opinion.

Good topic by the way!!!

[ZoeyJayne]

I got sick of being told that I am this or that.. I just made it wicked easy on everyone i am a desbian... (desiree + lesbian=) I am not changing for anyone or explaining myself for anyone for that matter. Take me or leave me :P

[Gemme]

If we're being very precise, I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. There is an abundant amount of people in this world, in our community and not, that have no idea what that means or even what the individual markers mean to me. Some days I have the patience and desire to educate and some days I don't.

I like labels. They are useful tools, but, like any other tool, they can be used for good and for evil. The value lies within the beholder, I believe.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by ZoeyJayne

...i am a desbian... (desiree + lesbian=) :P

hmmm, guess this makes me a bootsbian...I'm ok with that!

I dont live my "mainstream" life consistently vocally pushing my sexual, political, moral, or religious identity...well, not as a general practice.
So, while I'm socializing in queer circles how useful is it to know that I id as Butch? I'm partnered, I'm not dating or searching for my "other".
While socializing in hetero circles, how important is it to let people know I id as Butch? While cultivating my career, how important is it to identify to my employer as Butch?

I am searching for kindness, like-hearted people. People who serve their greater community in some capacity. People who care about other people.

I think identifying as a particular gender or aligning with a specific descriptor is a jumping off or a starting place. Its a place that we can seek validation or understanding from like people. Its a start to understanding a shared experience. And perhaps a signal to the world that people engage their lives in such a wide array of ways.

So for me, its a descriptor that points me, incrementally, toward a general direction in understanding someone and in helping them to understand a facet of me.

[Toofrufru]

Labels of me are for other people. To me I am just me. I do not feel like a commodity to be bought or sold therefore I need no label. I try to identify with someone through my experience on a heart level. I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences if any of those should help another human feel "apart of" along the way, then both of lives are richer for having known each other.
On a side note I do have and am attracted to those with bootsbian tendency.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Toofrufru

Labels of me are for other people. To me I am just me. I do not feel like a commodity to be bought or sold therefore I need no label. I try to identify with someone through my experience on a heart level. I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences if any of those should help another human feel "apart of" along the way, then both of lives are richer for having known each other.
On a side note I do have and am attracted to those with bootsbian tendency.

"I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences."

Yes.

This is where I struggle with labels and identity politics. The sum of me is more than my label or gender identity or sexuality or age or ________ (fill in the blank).

"Labels of me are for other people."

Yes. And they are often used as much to count us out, as to count us in. When we label each other based on one set of parameters of an identity, we often cease listening, or valuing the experiences of others. In saying so, I don't remove myself from accountability - I know for certain I have done it. As a result, sometimes I prefer to not look for the labels we wear in these online forums, so that I can read the words of another without bringing that baggage with me - "of course she would say that, she's _________ (fill in the blank)."