OFOS Butches & Femmes

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Lynn, After misunderstanding, I reread your post. I red lettered a portion.

Why? What is it about Old School that would keep folks from participating?

For me, I just never saw myself as fitting into a discussion of OFOS. I don't think of myself as old fashioned, and I don't consider manners and consideration to be old school--I hope they're enduring and timeless. My views of OFOS are probably too stereotypical, but that's why I like to visit threads and read and learn.

I can't speak for other folks, though.

[OS Butch]

Thank you, Lynn. I have been feeling the same and wondering. I don't think I am old fashioned, which is why my preference is old school......which still doesn't feel right because I would hope that my values would not ever go out of vogue!

Originally Posted by Lynn

For me, I just never saw myself as fitting into a discussion of OFOS. I don't think of myself as old fashioned, and I don't consider manners and consideration to be old school--I hope they're enduring and timeless. My views of OFOS are probably too stereotypical, but that's why I like to visit threads and read and learn.

I can't speak for other folks, though.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I really don't think I am any different than any other Butch, though it has been pointed out to me that there is a lack of general manners.
With manners on my mind, I would like to know, what manners seem to be lacking in the Butches from the Femmes' point of view. What are the top 3 things a Femme wants to see when going out on a first date?

I've stood in the rain waiting for a group of (young) andro-butch girls to a) stop talking and actually go through the open door b) stomp their cig butts on the ground and leave it there and c) look at me waiting and still dilly-dally their way inside. So yes, there is definitely a lack of general manners.

My late partner was Old School. I find that most womyn, butch or otherwise, have lost their sense of chivalry. Here are my top 3:

1) She used to not only help me put my coat on, but she would gently pull my hair from beneath the collar, spread it attractively down my back and straighten my collar if needed. I often got a gentle peck on the back of my neck during the process. In return, I adored her as if she was the most wonderful, most attentive, best dressed, well-mannered, most thoughtful human being who ever walked the earth (and she will always be that to me).

2) She didn't rush to the prize. Our 1st date was leisurely, comfortable and... well... gentle. She wasn't looking for that opportunity to "make her move", she wasn't trying to kiss me on the 1st date, she didn't make sexually explicit innuendos and she kept everything at an affectionate but classy level. She would graze my hand with hers, with a a soft caress instead of trying to capture it like it was a flag to be conquered.

3) She paid attention to ME. Sure we like to hear that we're lovely, sexy, or that we "turn you on", but what's better is to hear that and to be heard, too. Don't talk over me, don't randomly segue into different topics as if you were doing a stream-of-consciousness recital. Actually focus on what I say, not on whatever point you wanted to make next.

Sorry if this is long-winded and/or preachy, I just feel very strongly about this subject.

[OS Butch]

Not long winded at all LBgirl. Thank you for posting your top 3!

I do think the assisting with the coat and hair adjusting is one of those very intimate things a Butch can do for a Femme. I believe this kind of doting is missing to often and that it should be alive and well.

OSB

Originally Posted by LBgirl

I've stood in the rain waiting for a group of (young) andro-butch girls to a) stop talking and actually go through the open door b) stomp their cig butts on the ground and leave it there and c) look at me waiting and still dilly-dally their way inside. So yes, there is definitely a lack of general manners.

My late partner was Old School. I find that most womyn, butch or otherwise, have lost their sense of chivalry. Here are my top 3:

1) She used to not only help me put my coat on, but she would gently pull my hair from beneath the collar, spread it attractively down my back and straighten my collar if needed. I often got a gentle peck on the back of my neck during the process. In return, I adored her as if she was the most wonderful, most attentive, best dressed, well-mannered, most thoughtful human being who ever walked the earth (and she will always be that to me).

2) She didn't rush to the prize. Our 1st date was leisurely, comfortable and... well... gentle. She wasn't looking for that opportunity to "make her move", she wasn't trying to kiss me on the 1st date, she didn't make sexually explicit innuendos and she kept everything at an affectionate but classy level. She would graze my hand with hers, with a a soft caress instead of trying to capture it like it was a flag to be conquered.

3) She paid attention to ME. Sure we like to hear that we're lovely, sexy, or that we "turn you on", but what's better is to hear that and to be heard, too. Don't talk over me, don't randomly segue into different topics as if you were doing a stream-of-consciousness recital. Actually focus on what I say, not on whatever point you wanted to make next.

Sorry if this is long-winded and/or preachy, I just feel very strongly about this subject.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Not long winded at all LBgirl. Thank you for posting your top 3!

I do think the assisting with the coat and hair adjusting is one of those very intimate things a Butch can do for a Femme. I believe this kind of doting is missing to often and that it should be alive and well.

OSB

She was also from the South, a true Southern Gentleman. I remember the first time she did that for me... She had just put my coat on me, I reached up to pull my hair out and she gently grasped my elbows and put them down to my side, whispering in my ear, "Please let me." I felt a catch in my throat and my knees got weak. There's something to be said about that Southern Charm.

[undone]

LBgirl,

I think you have stated it with charm and grace, perfectly.

I think in todays life or at least what i have come across in my wanders, is a loss for the gentle reasons behind the curtsies, it seems to be done when done at all for sometimes less than genuine reasons

[LBgirl]

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by LBgirl

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

Chuckles, that gave me a lil laugh, thanks. I consider myself to be a gentleman. I open doors for the ladies I might happen to be out and about with. I wait until they are seated and if need be if it is a chair type sitting, help them with their chair. If it's winter time then I help them get their coat on. If it's chilly out and they have forgotten to wear a warm jacket I've been known to give them mine and insist that they take it. I will let them order first in restaurants unless they wish that I order for them, then I do that as well. If I'm riding a bus or some other similiar vehicle, if a lady is standing I will give her my seat. Those are just a few of the things I do.

But you're right, I think that as the generations have passed that being taught manners, politeness and what it is to be a gentleman or a lady has been tossed by the wayside by the mememe generations.

[PumaJ]

If being over a certain age and being of the opinion that using good manners shows respect for another makes one "old school", then I surely qualify! LOL!

Personally, I've always found it awkward when someone tries to help me on with my coat. I just am kind of a "dork" in that area and always manage to somehow get tangled up:-( However, I do appreciate it when anyone opens a door for me, or holds open a door for me. That's why I do so for others as well. But, there is something very different going on than mere manners when a Butch is the one getting the door for a Femme.

The wonderful Butches I've had the honor & pleasure of being partnered with in my life have been feminists, as I am. Yet, the wanting to open doors for me, hold my chair out, and all of the other gracious gestures they've done for me, just always seem to spring from their very beingness. Seems to me to be a quality that has somehow been encoded in them. Just as graciously allowing and receiving such gifts has been encoded in me, as a Femme. I'm definitely not the same way in my interactions with men, meaning I do my best to not allow or encourage such actions. Not that I want to be treated rudely. I just don't want to be treated differently by a man just because I'm a woman.

Yet, I would never stop a Butch from opening the door for me, or "laying her/hys coat" across the puddle for me to walk across. In my perception, we are both energetically empowered during such an exchange. It is part of the dance we do together. The dance that creates and completes a circle of feminine/masculine power between us that enriches, nourishes, and empowers each of us. That being said, my personal feminism comes out when I do the same sorts of gestures for the Butches I've been with. The fact that doing so often takes them by surprise is kind of fun and I've used it as a way to be playful.

Well, I could on a bit on that theme, I think, but I won't do that here. I will end by saying that I'm all for good manners. I believe they are a key factor in the civilized behavior of human beings, serving as a type of social lubricant that allows us to get along more easily with each other in our busy, hectic and increasingly crowded cities.

Off my soap box now.

[OS Butch]

Well, LB, I might add the are Femmes out there claiming to be OFOS and are just plain OHM (Old High Maintenance )

I really must point out that claiming a gentleman is a wide range of possibilities.....From Not farting or scratching inappropriate places to the Ward Clever being waited on hand and foot types.

I was told I am not OS. The truth of it was I was not her type of old school, she wanted Ward Clever type, which is not me.....I am not at the other end of the spectrum either I am in the middle.

For me it is very much the ying and yang, the dance. I am just likely to bring a cup of coffee or tea to my lady as she would for me. It the compliment of being joined. Her accepting me for doing things she is quite capable of doing, but appreciates that I get great joy out of doing them for her.

So, be specific when entertaining a Butchly sort to determine what kind of OFOS you really like.

My 2 cents
OSB

Originally Posted by LBgirl

OFOS Butches are hard to find. Too many punks out there claiming to be "gentlemen" when they really just need a good spanking. My 2 cents, lol.

[LBgirl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Well, LB, I might add the are Femmes out there claiming to be OFOS and are just plain OHM (Old High Maintenance )

I really must point out that claiming a gentleman is a wide range of possibilities.....From Not farting or scratching inappropriate places to the Ward Clever being waited on hand and foot types.

I was told I am not OS. The truth of it was I was not her type of old school, she wanted Ward Clever type, which is not me.....I am not at the other end of the spectrum either I am in the middle.

For me it is very much the ying and yang, the dance. I am just likely to bring a cup of coffee or tea to my lady as she would for me. It the compliment of being joined. Her accepting me for doing things she is quite capable of doing, but appreciates that I get great joy out of doing them for her.

So, be specific when entertaining a Butchly sort to determine what kind of OFOS you really like.

My 2 cents
OSB

I am in total agreement with you. It's not the act/s that impress me, it's the consideration and the dynamics of interaction that occur. Someone could hold a door for me and still be a complete cad. Ward Cleaver would be too boring. Now Ward Cleaver with a healthy dose of leather sprinkled in is a whole different story...

[OS Butch]

Good morning and Happy day to all. It has been months since I past through here. I trust all is well with folks.

I was thinking that my identity as OFOS is outdated. Old fashioned.....because it use to be how one was suppose to treat people? What kind of advancement is that in our society?

Shouldn't everyone be Old Fashioned?

I travel quite a bit between Virginia and Texas. Funny how things are different.

I went to a race track in West Virginia. A woman came out and sang our Nation Anthem. I stood and placed my hand over my heart, didn't sing cuz I can't carry a tune in a bucket. I was surprised how many people did not stand and how many men did not remove their hats.

I went to a rodeo in Texas. A woman came out and sang our Nation Anthem. I stood and placed my hand over my heart, didn't sing cuz I can't carry a tune in a bucket. I was surprised that EVERYONE stood and not 1 cowboy hat was on any head.

I know that I will continue to do my random acts of kindness as a rule of how I live and how I treat and respect others. If we all did these things, I hope it would catch on and it wouldn't be old fashioned or old school anymore.

[1ladyface]

As I was reading some of the previous posts about the loving actions of OFOS butches it struck me that being so respectful and sometimes even worshipful (is that the right word?) of femininity is, unfortunately radical in this world. As in, radically, eye-catchingly different from the behavior of the majority.

Just my two cents.

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

Originally Posted by LBgirl

She was also from the South, a true Southern Gentleman. I remember the first time she did that for me... She had just put my coat on me, I reached up to pull my hair out and she gently grasped my elbows and put them down to my side, whispering in my ear, "Please let me." I felt a catch in my throat and my knees got weak. There's something to be said about that Southern Charm.

I got the same catch in my throat when I read this. Oh my...

[clay]

I hope to never, ever lose my very own Southern Charm/gentleness....grin....and THANK YOU, Ladies~~~

[kittygrrl]

wish there was more activity in here..i don't care much for labels but some definitely fit ..people who understand (who i am) are smart and it's just hot when i find someone who gets me

[genghisfawn]

So there's LBGirl who mentions disingenuous punks who need spankings and OS Butch who mentions Old High Maintenance femmes... I've dealt with the former and I am certainly not the latter, but I still can't exactly describe what makes me OF/OS in a B-F context.

I also remember that just because it's never popularly discussed, there have been troubles, discords and abuses along the B-F continuum which people conveniently forget. Just like some of my fellow neo-traditionals*, I hope we don't forget that nothing is ever perfect because individual things and people are not perfect, either. But if we strive for an ideal because it gives us peace and comfort, we should continue to do it and welcome!

I am old-fashioned. I like my computer but I prefer my gramophone to a stereo. I prefer skirts to trousers. I'll take The Andrews Sisters over The Pussycat Dolls. I prefer cooking at home to doing takeout... but most of all I prefer mutual respect, honesty and loyalty to any sort of action or label.

These things seem to be lacking. I recently chased off one of those aforementioned punks (without a spanking... mustn't dirty my gloves) after a month or so of dating simply because hy was old enough to know better but too selfish to care. Hy claimed to be OS, and perhaps I didn't know hym well enough to understand how hy reckoned so, but perhaps hys definition of OS and my definition of OF are simply not compatible.

*Neo-traditional: A way of life which takes forgotten lessons of the past (modest dress, make-do-and-mend, stiff upper lip, courtesy and community, etc.) and employs them with lessons from the present (anti-homophobia, anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc.)

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Good morning and Happy day to all. It has been months since I past through here. I trust all is well with folks.

I was thinking that my identity as OFOS is outdated. Old fashioned.....because it use to be how one was suppose to treat people? What kind of advancement is that in our society?

Shouldn't everyone be Old Fashioned?

I travel quite a bit between Virginia and Texas. Funny how things are different.

I went to a race track in West Virginia. A woman came out and sang our Nation Anthem. I stood and placed my hand over my heart, didn't sing cuz I can't carry a tune in a bucket. I was surprised how many people did not stand and how many men did not remove their hats.

I went to a rodeo in Texas. A woman came out and sang our Nation Anthem. I stood and placed my hand over my heart, didn't sing cuz I can't carry a tune in a bucket. I was surprised that EVERYONE stood and not 1 cowboy hat was on any head.

I know that I will continue to do my random acts of kindness as a rule of how I live and how I treat and respect others. If we all did these things, I hope it would catch on and it wouldn't be old fashioned or old school anymore.

Manners and chivalry are never outdated..Maybe we are all a dying breed and when we are gone the neos will take over..i suppose that's ok but the extinction of this beautiful dynamic is hard to think about. Surely the gods will provide a tiny space for us somewhere in the universe.

[clay]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

Manners and chivalry are never outdated..Maybe we are all a dying breed and when we are gone the neos will take over..i suppose that's ok but the extinction of this beautiful dynamic is hard to think about. Surely the gods will provide a tiny space for us somewhere in the universe.

so true, kittygrrrl. Manners, chivalry, respect, courtesy, and being attentive & kind are qualities that make me OFOS. As someone said..."walk the walk and talk the talk".
I tend to place my palm under her elbow if we are walking in someplace...OR offer her my arm, pull out her chair, and even order for her IF I am certain of her tastes.
If walking on a sidewalk, I always take the outside, place my hand at the small of her back ever so lightly, and put my other hand under her elbow if pathway is uneven.
I help her take off her coat, and don it afterwards..and even so much as that small, genuine yet ever so innocently intimate pulling her hair out and fanning it just so off the collar....grinz...
After the date, I walk her to her door, ask if I may kiss top of her hand..and then watch her safely in...even using her key to unlock her door for her..and make sure door is closed and secure before I leave!
It isn't about the $$ BUT the genuine sincerity and quality of a date and using my manners, courtesy, respect, and chivalry.....these cost no money and are PRICELESS!
I am so OF I prefer to call her...initially anyway...and I will text her or call her the next day or so....just to tell her what a wonderful evening I had and how much I enjoyed the pleasure of her company!!
These attributes should be present with us....all places and at all times...mine continue even into a LTR...these aren't just for dates and such...they are with me FOR LIFE! just my .02...smiles

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by claybaby

so true, kittygrrrl. Manners, chivalry, respect, courtesy, and being attentive & kind are qualities that make me OFOS. As someone said..."walk the walk and talk the talk".
I tend to place my palm under her elbow if we are walking in someplace...OR offer her my arm, pull out her chair, and even order for her IF I am certain of her tastes.
If walking on a sidewalk, I always take the outside, place my hand at the small of her back ever so lightly, and put my other hand under her elbow if pathway is uneven.
I help her take off her coat, and don it afterwards..and even so much as that small, genuine yet ever so innocently intimate pulling her hair out and fanning it just so off the collar....grinz...
After the date, I walk her to her door, ask if I may kiss top of her hand..and then watch her safely in...even using her key to unlock her door for her..and make sure door is closed and secure before I leave!
It isn't about the $$ BUT the genuine sincerity and quality of a date and using my manners, courtesy, respect, and chivalry.....these cost no money and are PRICELESS!
I am so OF I prefer to call her...initially anyway...and I will text her or call her the next day or so....just to tell her what a wonderful evening I had and how much I enjoyed the pleasure of her company!!
These attributes should be present with us....all places and at all times...mine continue even into a LTR...these aren't just for dates and such...they are with me FOR LIFE! just my .02...smiles

This is perfection (to me)..it's not about going thru the motions of doing what someone (OS femme) might expect..it's all about believing in what you are doing and owning it (as part of who you are)..being otherwise is misleading..if that's not who you are, then don't try to pull it off..but if you're trying to figure it out if it feels right (for you)then that is exciting and it would be a privilege to have hym take my hand.