Too much honesty?

[agape]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

I got this thread topic idea from another thread I'm participating in.

You often hear, "Honesty is the best policy" but is it really? Is there a such thing as too much honesty in a relationship?

Here's where I'm coming from:

I'm a person with Asperger's syndrome. Since childhood, I've always been incredibly blunt and I never quite understood the concept of "time and place". If something is wrong, I point it out and try to "fix" it right away before it festers like an open sore. That's the core of who I am. Now, having said that, I've learned recently about this thing called "gesturing". That, in order to be in a successful relationship there has to be a lot of what I consider a "special type of lying" in order to maintain that relationship.

For example:

• Arguments - Do you aplogize when you know you're not wrong?
• Attraction - Do you deny that someone or something else caught your eye for a just moment when asked?
• Sexual Satisfaction - Do you fake it or are you honest?
• Breath/Body Odor - Do you say something or live with it?
• Friends - Would you tell your partner if you didn't like one their friends or just grin and bear it?

These are sensitive topics for people in committed relationships and I've only found, through trial and error, that sometimes it is considered "best" to tell white lies about these things and avoid honesty to keep the relationship in smooth-sailing waters.

Since I know most people who will respond to this thread have neurotypically-wired brains, I don't expect that posters will see things the way I see them (black and white) but I'm very curious about the overall idea of gesturing and how it is used (or if it is used) in your relationship.

Are you completely blunt and honest with each other all of the time? Is there a time when being too honest might seriously damage the relationship? Or do you think letting too many things "go" in a relationship will end up in a serious blow-up or break-up?

Where do you, personally, draw the line?

Well, I'm usually considered "too honest" and I often seem to get into trouble for that... In the end, I start keeping too much to myself and that seems to be disliked too...

I'm having a very hard time with what ppl call "white lies", to me I don't see any reason why someone would lie about small things like someones hair-cut for example. If I look bad, I would like to know!

Of course, one doesn't have to be rude either and also just because sth is true doesn't mean you must say it out loud...

Arguments - Do you aplogize when you know you're not wrong?
Sometimes I might, since being right or wrong depends on one's point of view...

Attraction - Do you deny that someone or something else caught your eye for a just moment when asked?
I normally don't deny it, but it depends on the situation...


Sexual Satisfaction - Do you fake it or are you honest?
I'm always honest about that.

Breath/Body Odor - Do you say something or live with it?
Since I have a very strong sense of smell I feel I would have to tell someone very close to me or else I couldn't live with the person... In other cases I try to endure until I can get away...

Friends - Would you tell your partner if you didn't like one their friends or just grin and bear it?
I'm pretty sure I would, if I was expected to spend a lot of time with the friend. I can't see why that would be rude in any way. To me, it's like stating that I don't like my partners favorite ice cream, would that be rude? Even when together, we are two different persons and can't always like the same things, food or ppl...

BUT I have no problem to lie to protect myself and the ones I love. That's where my limit goes...

[Ginger]

I wanted to add, I didn't learn how to tell a social lie till I was in my forties.

Now I do things like, if I don't have plans for Christmas, and someone at work I don't know well asks me what I'm doing, I say I'll be at a friend's house. Or if someone asks if I had a great weekend and I didn't, I'll say it was productive or restful or some bullshit like that.

I save the vulnerable side of myself for people I trust and love. And it took me a long time to learn that's okay, maybe because I was so terrified of my parents when I was growing up, and didn't develop judgment about when it's okay to lie.

So I guess I erred on the side of full disclosure at all times. And yes, telling the truth has also gotten me into trouble with people, trouble that was unnecessary in the long run.

[agape]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

I wanted to add, I didn't learn how to tell a social lie till I was in my forties.

Now I do things like, if I don't have plans for Christmas, and someone at work I don't know well asks me what I'm doing, I say I'll be at a friend's house. Or if someone asks if I had a great weekend and I didn't, I'll say it was productive or restful or some bullshit like that.

I save the vulnerable side of myself for people I trust and love. And it took me a long time to learn that's okay, maybe because I was so terrified of my parents when I was growing up, and didn't develop judgment about when it's okay to lie.

So I guess I erred on the side of full disclosure at all times. And yes, telling the truth has also gotten me into trouble with people, trouble that was unnecessary in the long run.

I think I would count that as protecting oneself... I don't see anything wrong with that... (not that my approval is necessary -just saying-)

[Nic]

Everyone lies. It's why people lie that's of more interest to me.

Don't like my feelings being protected. It's not to my benefit. But I understand why people do it. Always have to ask myself, do I make it hard to talk to me; do I create an environment that isn't conducive to communicating; how did it go last time someone had to tell me something hard? It's on me to be open to honesty or I might not be getting it. Why would someone beat their head against a wall if I'm not going to hear them?

I tell people if they have B.O. or whatever. I want to know so I'm backing up what I want with what I'm willing to do.

Attraction happens to everyone. Big deal. I talk about it only if it becomes a problem.

Sex is hard to comment on, for me. Had 1 serious gf before dating the woman who became my wife. She's been dead for 4 years and I'm not at that stage with the girl I'm dating right now. So, at 52 years old, I've only ever had sex with 2 women. When I was married we had a pretty honest approach to it and a couple of decades to get it right. Guess we figured that if we wanted it to be good we were going to have to figure out talk about it! Took us a few years to get to a place where our egos didn't need to show up for the conversation. Being determined to work things out doesn't mean you're going to be successful at the conversation. Being willing to keep at it might be the key. Sex is always hard to discuss for some people. You don't know what you're getting into until you have an experience with someone. It can't possibly be the same conversation or even the same KIND of conversation with any 2 people. You don't know what's going on for them or what history they have until you're in that space with them. You work out the obstacles or you don't. Guess it depends on how much you want someone to be part of your life. I like the "sex is like cooking" thought. Great way to describe it.

Arguing is the same personal ego conversation sex is, IMO. My wife and I used to hold hands while we argued. Definitely gives the argument a different energy when you have to sit close enough to touch one another. Had a disagreement with my girl yesterday and I reached out to hold her hand and she was shocked. She said "I always wished I could do this when I was in an argument with someone I love!" Everything I was annoyed about wasn't important after that because it was the first time she said she loved me. Important things fall into place and unimportant things fall by the wayside when you're holding on to one another. Arguing is usually about misunderstanding or ego. If it's not either of those things, and you differ from one another so much that you can't let go of your own POV long enough to see a way through or around or over an obstacle then maybe the issue isn't really what you're arguing about at the moment. Maybe it's bigger than that.

Great topic.

[Sweet Bliss]

This topic is one of my favorites. I hear from others, "I don't lie, cheat or steal. " and I say, "of course you do ". Admitting it is the first step towards open communication.

I am truthful about myself to the best of my ability. Yes I have blind spots. That doesn't make me a liar. We all have occasions when we lie.

Roomie : do we have any chips left?

Me: no they're all gone.

Roomie : you ate them all!

Me: no I didn't.

Roomie : you liar,you ate them all!

Me: look. I'm trying to avoid making you throw up. I opened the bag, and roaches were in the chips. Happy now? I tossed them.

She couldn't eat the rest of the evening.

Don't badger me to spill my guts if you can't deal. Keep your egocentric attitude under your hat. What choices I make regarding my life pertain only to me. Personally I couldn't care less what you would or wouldn't do if you were me. You aren't me. I'm not you either. Unless you walk ten miles in my place your commentary is moot.

Being blunt is rarely my MO. Few folks can handle it.

Just be honest with me, is the battle cry, followed by them attacking me for my"honest answers. "

There is no way to predict what version of "truth " someone is expecting from you. My experience has been that the "truth " is not what they are after.

They want assurance.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Sweet Bliss

...

Being blunt is rarely my MO. Few folks can handle it.

Just be honest with me, is the battle cry, followed by them attacking me for my"honest answers. "

There is no way to predict what version of "truth " someone is expecting from you. My experience has been that the "truth " is not what they are after.

They want assurance.

I think you're right and sometimes I choose to tell the truth whether someone wants to hear it or not—it feels validating to me, sometimes, to be seen clearly, and it's worth alienating someone, even someone I care deeply about.

I've also learned that it's okay to lie if it makes a situation less awkward with someone I'll never see again. Someone asked me out not long ago and I didn't want to go out with her. I didn't say, You're not my type, I just said, I'm not dating now, I'm taking a break. Why make someone feel bad? I assume others have done the same to me.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by only_you

Breath/Body Odor - Do you say something or live with it?
Since I have a very strong sense of smell I feel I would have to tell someone very close to me or else I couldn't live with the person... In other cases I try to endure until I can get away...

I'm very sensitive to smells too. It's terrible. Bad breath or lack of hygiene is a deal-breaker for me. It's an instant turn-off.

I agree with what others have said on this thread. Everybody lies. Even I lie occasionally but I fail to understand people who seem to spend their lives lying as though it's completely normal.

I was dating somebody a few months ago and found out hy lied about hys age when I accidentally caught sight of hys license. I'm like, "Really?" Then, hy got offended that I told my family. What!? If you're lying about your age and get that angry when somebody shares it openly with their family then you've got a few issues.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

If I was totally honest all the time, then, irrespective of how sensitive I deliver the message, I'd very quickly get into trouble.

For example, if someone tells me that they've just got a new hairstyle, I'll likely tell them that it looks really nice - whether I think it does or not. It's just polite, inane conversation to me but, if i like or at least don't dislike the person, I'd likely tell them a white lie to avoid causing any offence.

Originally Posted by only_you

Well, I'm usually considered "too honest" and I often seem to get into trouble for that... In the end, I start keeping too much to myself and that seems to be disliked too...

I'm having a very hard time with what ppl call "white lies", to me I don't see any reason why someone would lie about small things like someones hair-cut for example. If I look bad, I would like to know!

I will happily "lie" about such things. It depends on context to me.

For example, last week I met a friend for a coffee and she had a very large Coach bag. I'd never seen her with this before and as a middle-income earner with a young family, it is a luxury that she couldn't afford on a regular basis.

I didn't think it looked nice (because of the colour and a bit on the large size) but I immediately complimented her on her nice her bag was. I did this because I thought she'd be happy with the compliment, as she appeared to be, and it gets the conversation off to a reasonable start.

Does that make me insincere? Maybe. Does it make me a bad person? No, although many other things about me do.

It's the same when someone asks me about their haircut or a dress that they are wearing. Often they are not asking for an honest critique but, rather, for validation. If I think that they are looking for validation, then I'll validate where possible. Of course, if it looks ridiculous, I'd politely say something - it's all about context.


Take, for example, someone who is wearing a new dress on a night out. I don't particularly like it but, if asked, I'll try to be complimentary about the dress and how the lady is wearing it.


On the other hand, if my friend shows me the dress because she bought it and is having second thoughts, thinking of taking it back, then I'll feel more able to give an honest critique and, diplomatically, will do so.

[agape]

Actually, I didn't read all the comments before I posted my reply so I didn't see you had written sth about hair-cuts...
What I wrote, I didn't mean as a criticism against white-lying in general... What I meant is more that I'm having a hard time with the whole thing for reasons like this:

1. I truly am incapable of telling white lies and sometimes it feels like a slight social handicap not to be able to in some occasions do so... meaning: I wish I could, then I would!
2. I personally want my friends true opinion when I ask how I look so I sometimes forget that no everyone wants that...
3. I often feel I can tell when someone is lying and it can be very confusing in the long run when surrounded by ppl who tell white lies too often... (in the end I don't know what to believe...)

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I will happily "lie" about such things. It depends on context to me.

I totally agree that it depends on the context!

Once I was out with friends at a place without mirrors. At some point during the evening my make up got ruined and I basically looked like a raccoon the entire evening... My friends didn't say anything so I realized how I looked when I finally got home. I find that them not telling me was way more rude than if they would actually tell me so I can do something about it.

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Does that make me insincere? Maybe. Does it make me a bad person? No, although many other things about me do.

I too often give compliments -I don't find it insincere. Just because I personally don't like something doesn't mean it cannot be seen as nice by others... One can almost always find something nice to say to others.

I most definitely wouldn't think of white-lying as something that would make someone a "bad person". What's "good" and "bad" always depends on the situation imo...

Originally Posted by Ciaran

It's the same when someone asks me about their haircut or a dress that they are wearing. Often they are not asking for an honest critique but, rather, for validation. If I think that they are looking for validation, then I'll validate where possible. Of course, if it looks ridiculous, I'd politely say something - it's all about context.


Take, for example, someone who is wearing a new dress on a night out. I don't particularly like it but, if asked, I'll try to be complimentary about the dress and how the lady is wearing it.

In my case if I realize the person is actually looking for validation (hard to know what is in ppl's heads...) then I will try to avoid the question. I might turn the question back at the person or avoid answering it... I can try to find sth I like in the dress or the person so I can give a fair compliment -just like you said (if I understood correctly).

What I can't do is tell someone "you look great" when I find they don't. I'm not saying it's bad to do so I just personally can't do it and don't like it when others do it to me... Also, I don't understand why my opinion of other ppl's looks would be of any interest. I'm not so much into looks, I'm more like into the "energy" of a person, what it feels like when I'm around them... but that's a whole different story...

Originally Posted by Ciaran

On the other hand, if my friend shows me the dress because she bought it and is having second thoughts, thinking of taking it back, then I'll feel more able to give an honest critique and, diplomatically, will do so.

That's exactly the type of situation I would find mean to not tell the truth. So totally agree on that one as well!

I would like to share another example: There is this very handsome butch at my work and once when we were having a break she took of her "working-hat" (I don't know how they are called) and said: "I know, my hair looks like a mess". Obviously she didn't want to hear what her hair looked like and I felt I couldn't say "oh no, it looks great" when we both knew very well that it didn't... So I replied sth like: "oh, I don't care about stuff like that" which is very true I really don't care about looks so much.

So I guess I can be a bit of a diplomat too...
Had I been completely honest I would probably say sth like: "oh, you could shave your head for all I care, I would still find you smokin hot but since you have a girlfriend and you are a co-worker you are more like look but don't touch for me. Not to mention you are probably out of my league as well..."

It's a good think ppl can't read minds isn't it? lol

[Breathless]

[Cin]

Honesty is kind of a funny thing. By funny I don’t necessarily mean haha funny, although at times it is that, I mean that honesty in terms of what is true is oddly obscure and often difficult to pin down. The reality is that honesty and truth are not interchangeable. Frequently they are not the same thing at all and are often worlds apart in thought, word and deed.

It would be nice if truth were black and white and easily understood when talking in terms of honesty. I have found that what is my truth today is not always my truth tomorrow. And I have a hard time feeling any depth of allegiance to something so abstract, fleeting and changeable. So while I could always answer honestly about how I see it today or how I am feeling about something at any given moment I am not the barometer of truth for anyone. I am wary of acting as a truth bringer for someone else. Do I like your purse or your dress or your choice of reading material? Who cares really? I could tell you honestly how I feel about any of those things or a number of others, but seriously what does that tell you about the purse or the dress or the book your are reading, or anything else for that matter? My answer would give you information about me. It would tell you about the kinds of clothes I like and the books I enjoy as well as give you a window into how I treat other human beings. But it would give you little information about the actual object or subject in question. So to me when someone asks something about their personal choices I understand it to mean that they are less interested in my personal opinion than they are in being made to feel validated about their choices. We all need that.

I tell myself that the person is not going to be comforted to hear that I think their dress is funny looking and the sleeves make me want to laugh out loud or that their bag is ridiculous and to me it looks like they are ready for a day or two at the beach. My opinion, that the bag could do double duty as a cooler and if I added a plastic liner and some ice or an ice pack I could keep my drinks and my food cold all day, is not something that needs to be shared with the owner of said bag. Likewise they don’t need to know that I find their choice of reading material misguided at best. Who the hell am I? I mean opinions are like assholes and mine is no more valid or less prone to bullshit than anyone else’s. I’m not even going to get started on the unconscious motivations or hidden agendas that are often deeply buried behind our so-called honesty.

For me, when I love people, my desire is to support them. I don’t find telling them I think their haircut is less than flattering is supportive. No matter how much honesty I believe I owe them. Or how nicely and kindly I choose to say it. If I am looking to always tell the truth, then the truth is that I don’t believe I am qualified to give an opinion regarding fashion or hairstyles. Nor am I a book, film or art critic. And if you are interested in me as a person you are already clear on my choice of fashion, film, art and reading material, as well as a host of other things. If you are paying attention, you know me. So when you ask me how I like your hair or your clothes you already know if it is something I would choose. And if it is not and you still ask me then you are looking for something other than my feelings about said object. You are asking me about how I feel about the thing in reference to YOU. How do I like it on you? I love you so I support your personal choices. I want you to express yourself. I don’t want you to express me. I can do that myself. So I will choose to answer in a way that is supportive of your expression of yourself.

As far as smelly people, I have found they are not surprised to know they smell. There are plethoras of honest people walking about dying to share their truth so there is little chance I would be the first to inform them of their offensive odor. I figure if they haven’t done something about it by now they are probably not going to just because I choose to be the bearer of the honest truth for them. So I could still tell them, but I have to be honest with myself if I choose to do that. I must understand that I am doing it because their stink pisses me off and I want them to know it and not because I believe I am doing them any favors.

I am fortunate that I have no relatives who have hygiene issues and I would not choose to have a close personal relationship with someone who has poor hygiene. So if someone who I love happened to smell for any reason it would be temporary and situational like working out hard or eating garlic shrimp and I wouldn’t feel the need to rush them into the shower or hand them a bottle of mouth wash even if I honestly felt that would be the best thing for them to do. I have never been in a relationship with anyone who felt inclined to go out or go to work after working out or eating onions without showering, brushing their teeth, gargling with mouth wash and sucking on a breath mint. And if someone chooses to do this, I doubt it’s because nobody has had the good manners to be honest with them. I think it is a much different problem than a lack of honesty from close personal friends and family.

As far as sex goes, for me it is important to be real.

When it comes to arguments, I will apologize for my part. I don’t look at an argument as a win/lose kind of thing, at least I try not to. I believe in compromise so I very rarely feel I am so right that I can’t be wrong.

I find myself disliking very few people and never have I disliked a friend of a partner. I like some people better than others but I rarely actively dislike anyone. So it’s hard to imagine what I might do. I’d like to think I would not feel it necessary to make my feelings about my wife’s friend matter at all.

I used to think that letting too many things "go" in a relationship would end up in a serious blow-up or break-up so I always tried for a resolution. I was never willing to let anything go. It had to be processed and worked through until everyone was satisfied. I was exhausting. Now I often mentally wander away from an argument long before it is resolved. I get bored with fighting. I don’t have to win. I don’t even have to always be understood. I seriously think about how important is something compared to my love for my wife. I don’t feel that I’m being compromised as a person by letting stuff go. Or that I’m stuffing my feelings. I never stuff my feelings. Noone who is close to me ever wonders how I feel about something. It’s just that I don’t make my feelings the truth of anything. Just because I feel some way doesn’t mean I have to get my way.

I like to think that honesty is important to me, but it is not the kind of honesty that needs to tell someone what I think about their clothes or their hairstyle or their friends. It’s more an honesty of commitment, an honesty of emotional depth and openness, an honesty of the heart, a willingness to show you honestly and fearlessly who I am. And If I am in a relationship with someone who has the depth of love and the strength of character to do that for me, the kind of honesty they will get back will be honest love and compassion and an honest desire to protect and honor what they have shown me. And an honest acceptance without judgment of who they are.

[agape]

[LeftWriteFemme]

Telling this much truth.......maybe not such a good idea