Infidelity

[Dylan]

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

[Dylan]

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

[Dylan]

1. Ahhhhhhhh, thanks. I don't watch The Larry.

2. UGH with the stereotyping. Yeah, I agree...speaking in terms of stereotypes would totally diminish the actual situation.

2a) on a side note, I DO believe in some differences I didn't used to believe in...but I'm still totally agreeing with what you've said here.

3. Oh, I know...I was agreeing with you too. It's so annoying.

4. I agree.

5. Good points...thanks for the perspective


Dylan

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

1. Oh, Larry King Live. (LKL).. Tuesday night. Actually, it was a lousy group of interviewees. And the experts on sexual addictions were just not articulate at all. Not a very good representation of the fact that it can be an addictive and destructive situation for some people.

2. There was also a whole lotta stereotyping of both men and women going on! Which for me, gets in the way of looking at this in terms of addiction. This, and the latest celebrity sex rehab scenarios without people in the field that know what they are talking about.

3. JeepSakes, I agreed with you about the double standard... and the looks stuff as well. And, we all have different ideas of beauty, anyway. But, only people that are considered, beautiful, deserve to be treated well?? WTF is that?

4. I am right with you concerning personal choices.... I hate it when someone says they are lucky (re: about their relationship & partner). It isn't about luck at all, it is about taking care of yourself and choosing well. And having what it takes to be effective as a partner and knowing the art of cooperation. I know I make very conscious decisions about relationships and who I even date. Sure, I recognize that someone is a great choice, but I don't role dice in choosing to find out if someone is right for me (and themselves). And just because I might be smitten, doesn't mean I will turn away from what I know has to there in order to have a healthy relationship with someone. I make choices.

5. I had hoped with the Tiger Woods fiasco, that some good information would get out about sexual addictions, but, don't think it is. People don't want to deal with this. And they especially don't want to in terms of male stereotypes. They are much more able to think in terms of sex addiction with women, really... and stereotypes around sex abuse and histrionic personality variables (more stereotypes, usually).

Anything that gets in the way of forming positive relationships can have an addictive nature to it.

Just thinking that shouldn’t everyone cherish, respect, and hold their partner in high regard based upon mutuality of these tenets.

Oh, and hell yes, the Pope and the Band of Merry Men are a hell of a lot more important than this! Why can't Congress intervene with legislation in which all churches cannot be exempt from prosecution in these cases? The Catholic church is not the only perp here, either. The way in which religious organizations are protected/legally insulated from criminal (and civil) litigation in the US is an outrage.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

Meg Ryan cheated with Russell Crowe, not Antonio, I think. Either way, she went the way of the manly man.

Originally Posted by Dylan

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

Mary Kay Laterneau was a teacher that had sex and babies with a student. I believe he was...14 when the first baby was born. She was married and had 4 or 5 kids already.

Anne Heche cheated on Ellen with a man....a camera guy?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

I am sorry but I don't need you to clear anything up for me, I am quite capable at understanding logic, even yours.

As a woman who has been through a nasty divorce, one that YOU would qualify in the CANNOT dept. I know for a fact you are wrong. Perhaps when you actually go through one we can exchange logic and facts, till then I would really appreciate you not using your misogynist condescending tone on me, thanks.

PS: You also added; "In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers." And that is why there is such a thing as a legal separation, until such papers are finalized.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

[apretty]

i thought this thread was about lying cheating sacks of shit, which has shit to do with gender..?

(unless of course it's a MAN who thinks cheating is a means to navigating his manhood--i've absolutely seen that behavior/justification.)

[Rope]

Yes, sex addicts need help. Are Tiger Woods or Sandra Bullocks' husband sex addicts? I doubt it. So why do they hold this up as their recovery plan? Because we like our celebrity spokespeople to be squeeky clean and this is all they need to do, come clean seek professional help and *poof they're cured and better in our eyes, right? Rather than call a spade a spade, you cheated, you got caught, that wasn't your original agreement--they turn it into a "medical" problem and that absolves them. The "they" is publicists.

Cheating is cheating--if you suddenly want to run around on your spouse, significant other, girlfriend, boyfriend best be up front and have that talk WAY before another pops into the picture.

As others have said polyamory and open relationships are not about cheating or taking advantage of another person. It takes hard work to have these kind of relationships.

The "one and only" concept works for many and monogomany as polyamory are valid expressions of ones preference for relationships. The holier than thou attitude--I could not stand someone else touching the one I love, or I give them my all and could not share them--interesting commentar y but certainly a little laced with unconscious condescension.

Is monogamy an idea that is fading? I think yes and no, I think lots of people leave relationships immediately after finding a passing fling and they are sorry but the damage is done. Trust is broken and it's incredibly hard to get that back and forgive and forget. I see lots of people think that the goal is monogamy rather than the goal is a healty relationship. I don't think polyamory is for everyone--it takes a lot of work. But think about what you truly want--is dating where you should really be rather than focusing on one person. Dating is for trying on people, trying on relationships--so insisting that the person you're dating should be mongamous with you--that's called a relationship not dating.

Is staying in a relationship with one person until you find the next one healthy? That reminds me of high school relationships--don't break up with one until you've hooked the next one. As if being alone a milisecond isn't possibly the healthiest thing you could do for yourself and ultimately the next relationship.

Rope--

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

Yes butches are equated to men all the time. I don't see men or butches being held to higher standards. I see the exact opposite when it comes to men. Women are held to much higher standards and there is lots of violence against women when they have cheated or perceived to have cheated, something that can happen to men but doesn't nearly as often. Boys will be boys may be a stereotype but it is also a major way of excusing behavior.

As to butch femme communities, I think if a butch, FTM, person of masculine persuasion is cheated on they get the same sympathy and sense of outrage as when it happens to a femme. I do not see butches being held to higher standards when it comes to cheating, relationships, etc. There are of course instances of friends taking sides, etc which happens in any community.

As to celebrities, I don't much care. I didn't think you did either, but you keep bringing them up.

Oh and as to my little "tutorial" yeah most butches and femmes are women. When you keep talking about how bad men have it and keep ignoring what women have to say here and in other discussions it's pretty offensive to some of us.

Cheating is cheating no matter which gender does it.

[BullDog]

I am very monogamous and definitely feel I am wired that way. I do think though there are probably some unrealistic expectations that go along with it for many people. However, I don't see how people who cheat or have a problem with honesty or communication would be successful at poly relationships either. You have to be honest and communicate well to have successful poly relationships as much or more than with a successful monogamous one because there are more individuals or potentially more individuals involved.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

[Dylan]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

I didn't even do it when it WAS acceptable. I have to say that it really depends on how an individual is wired. Who are the acceptable police? I mean, who deems what is acceptable in a relationship between two people other than those two people? My vagina's business ends at the tip of everyone elses nose.

When women cheat (or even just date more than one person) they are deemed whore, slut, man eater, cheap, loose and so forth. Men normally get a wink and a pat on the back. Stud muffins. (Unless they are high profile and claiming family values, or just being two faced douche bags)

So your point of acceptability is moot, IMO. Cheating, lying, and hiding things from ones partner? Not nice. No matter who you are.

[AtLast]

There is a very big difference across cultures concerning infidelity and women (or pre-marital, usually arranged, sex). And I do agree with how women get labeled as whore, slut, etc. if they cheat or have sex with more than one partner. That is a double standard, as well.

The whole idea that men will cheat and that is what to expect makes me very angry. It fits right into the ignorance around sexual addiction and how it can destroy lives. And cheating isn't the only variable in which it can become a problem.

There are young men that use street viagra that have no problems getting it up or sustaining an erection..... this is a serious problem as this drugs have serious side effects and are not made to be used like this.

Why the hell I am even trying to have a serious discussion about this, I have no idea. However, women have sexual addictions as well and forfuckingsake.... that does have relevance here!! So does fidelity.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

There is a very big difference across cultures concerning infidelity and women (or pre-marital, usually arranged, sex). And I do agree with how women get labeled as whore, slut, etc. if they cheat or have sex with more than one partner. That is a double standard, as well.

The whole idea that men will cheat and that is what to expect makes me very angry. It fits right into the ignorance around sexual addiction and how it can destroy lives. And cheating isn't the only variable in which it can become a problem.

There are young men that use street viagra that have no problems getting it up or sustaining an erection..... this is a serious problem as this drugs have serious side effects and are not made to be used like this.

Why the hell I am even trying to have a serious discussion about this, I have no idea. However, women have sexual addictions as well and forfuckingsake.... that does have relevance here!! So does fidelity.

Insurance companies pay for Viagra and most pharmacies carry it.
The same cannot be said for birth control, the morning after pill, etc.
I've yet to hear of a flacid penis be a pre-existing condition, or beating ones wife be a pre-existing condition.
I HAVE heard of childbirth and being a victim of DV justified as reason to deny health coverage.

I guess my point is that double standards run rampant, but not usually in the favor of women.

Dylan using married queers who are divorcing is almost comical considering the incredibly small percentage of queers who are allowed to get married and how very new it is.