Class, Privilege, and Social Markers

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

To jump off of what AJ said, often education is the marker, rather than how much money someones makes/has.

How many times have I heard, Ohhh, so and so works in a car or other type of factory, but for 100 years those have been stable middle class jobs that paid for education, families, very nice homes, amenities, boats, travel etc. But a factory worker or truck driver might be seen as lower class than someone who makes a 10th of what they make (or rather did until recently) who works at a museum or a high school or even in retail. It is somehow seen as more higher class since no one actually gets dirty.

In some other countries, the UK and Argentina that I know of, the Middle Class is actually wealthy people who work. Powerful Doctors, Lawyers, Government Officials, Captains of Industry are Middle Class, as is anyone who has a job no matter how much money they have. To be rich, one does not work at all.

In this scenario, most of what we call Middle Class in the US falls into "Upper Poor" maybe?

Thoughts on what actually is Middle Class?

I grew up in England and the class divisions in the US still confuse me. I have to admit that a lot of the posts here confuse me. I don't understand class shame.

Class for me always meant if you worked you were working class (plus there are issues of accents) if you owned your own business or worked for yourself you were middle class and if you didn't have to work or had inherited money/a title/ the right accent/education then you were upper class. Being upper class wasn't tied to income.

You could be poor but be upper class based on your accent, family, or if you had a public school education. To me, what is defined as middle class in the US is working class. Plus, the US is supposed to "classless" yet there is a huge obsesssion with class.

Can we exchange the word class for income? Because in the US class seems to be more about what income bracket you fall into than anything else. Also, your class status changes based on your income so you can move up or down. In England, you are the class you are born into or what your accent marks you as. So know matter how much money I might earn, my class status won't ever change.

Melissa

[Hack]

I think I was fortunate to have the upbringing I did. I had a foot firmly planted in two very different worlds.

First, there was my father's side of the family -- professional, solidly upper middle class (even called "rich" in our little town). I always like to say this is where I learned my table manners -- which fork to use when and all that.

Then there was my mother's side of the family -- loud, boisterious Polish-Catholics. Always a party. I like to say this is where I learned to respect women because Grandma was the center of the family, and the wives, moms and aunts were always upheld and respected. I like to say this is where I learned respect, especially for women.

I'm comfortable anywhere...at a fancy restaurant or at someone's kitchen table being served hot dogs and tater tots. Yet, when I am at some fancy event, you're likely to find me talking more to the hired help, and not my fellow partygoers.

My whole life is a study in dichotomy, but in this respect, I find it beneficial. I think my life is a good mix of the two.

Jake

[Medusa]

Im glad that a few folks have brought up the whole thing where folks appropriate a class history that doesn't really belong to them.

Im trying to tease out a parallel around the very rich and the very poor. There is almost some kind of....I dunno...."money ceiling"? where the very wealthy and very poor are concerned. Some kind of untouchable glamorization.
I think of the very wealthy as they are shown on tv and how there is this mythical unicorn feeling attached to them through tabloids and media. Movie stars and singers with gold-plated dog bowls and $30 million homes are elevated to this "untouchable" (or maybe unimaginable) status.
There is "celebrity" attached through wealth. The idea that human beings are worth more if they are "worth" more.

But then, there is this weird dichotomy where the very poor also have a mythical unicorn thing attached. Think of Nuns and Monks who have no earthly possessions; I think society oftens sees this life as "magical" or "untouchable". The celebrity attached here is one that says "This person must be magical in other ways because they have no money". Glamorized for what might seem like a perfected lack of desire?

[Nat]

Class for me was always a mixed bag. We were poor, but my extended family wasn't. My dad was absent and there was no child support, and my mom was a secretary. My clothes, my shoes often had holes. My mom would bring me clothes her coworkers' kids had outgrown, we ate cheaply, blah blah blah. But I was surrounded by books and art and music. My grandparents paid for my cello lessons from the age of 6. They didn't want to help my mother too much because they "didn't want to discourage her from finding a husband."

I was expected to graduate from college. A bachelor's degree was the minimum requirement to be a legitimate member of the family - it seemed. But my family did not contribute by either offering to house me or help pay for my education. I lived off an older boyfriend and student loans before I finally dropped out and became a graveyard-shift security guard at the age of 19.

I enjoyed my job. I read many books I otherwise never would have read and have now almost entirely forgotten (like Anna Karenina). I wandered through large, empty buildings. I attended the firings of volatile employees. I woke up homeless drunk men every morning in the parking garage before my boss got to work. The amount of sexual harrassment I received and the amount of people who talked to me like I was a POS or who ignored me completely was a big shock to me at the time - it was so different than I was treated by teachers, peers and family members in my old life.

It was very interesting seeing how differently people treated me depending on my perceived class.

I married into a wealthy family, I finished my degree (I still took out loans - which I will be paying off forever, but no longer qualified for financially based grants due to my marriage). He always seemed to translate me to his family as though I was a little too alien for them. We bought houses. I got to spend a summer at Oxford. But on a weekend trip to London, two classmates and I went to our first lesbian bar - the Candy Bar. When I walked into that beautiful, loud, shining, packed place, it felt like home. By the next summer, I had left him.

And I began eeking out my little life. I have had better salaries and worse salaries during my adult life. I'm currently on the "worse" side of things, but hopefully not forever. I'm alright though. I'm so thankful to have a job. I'm so thankful to have my degree. I'll be paying it off forever. I have lots of feelings about class and money. I know I have privilege. I also know that I am not polished, and that I feel awkward and unkempt and a bit vulgar among people who are more well-heeled.

I don't fit distinctly into a single class and I never have.

[Boots13]

The U. S. Department of Labor describes the working poor as

“individuals who have spent at least twenty-seven weeks in the labor force, but whose income fell below the official poverty threshold.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty threshold is $14,763 for a family of four.

So we are labeled and assigned a social class by our own government, no matter how fluid social class has become. I'm pushing 50 and cant remember a time (in my lifetime) the economy has been so unstable. All the biggies are affected..Tech, Pharm, Oil, Wall Street, Banking, Real Estate, Insurance...nothing seems stable.

Our economy is so unstable that my ideas of Social Class (re: money, assets, income, futures) are rapidly changing as well. Is the instability changing (or at least lending compassion) to our social structures? I hope so.
I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to reiterate that my perception of economic social class in North America is undergoing a huge shift. White Collar is no longer bastardizing our economy, that Blue Collar feels honest to me, and that the Working Poor with its broader base, is no longer thought of as a lazy population. Poverty and deficit has nested in places its never been in my lifetime (Wall Street, Real Estate, Tech, Oil) . Poverty and financial oblivion is a place that any of us are headed, at any time. And as our country continues to corkscrew itself further into economic distress I can tell you that the economic "markers" and expectations (old stereotypes) of social class seem to be changing.

[SassyLeo]

I'm white. My mother's parents came here from Turkey where they were very poor. My dad's grandparents had come from Ireland, and had lots of money until the depression hit.

When I was small, my mom didn’t work and stayed home with me until I was in 2nd or 3rd grade. She made my clothes until I started grammar school. We took the bus everywhere since she didn’t drive, plus we only had one car. My dad worked sometimes 2 jobs plus he became an expert “dumpster diver” and on the weekends we would have yard sales or sell at the flea market.

Most of the kids at my grammar school were white, with a few Hispanic and Asian kids. It was a range of poor to lower middle class kids. I don’t remember many of the kids having name brand clothes or nice toys, etc.

Our house had bad mold issues and crappy carpet. We had used everything; furniture, clothing, house wares, etc. We shopped at the local co-op, using the same bags and containers over and over…my mom made everything from scratch. We didn’t have a TV for years and then when we did, we rarely watched it.

My dad eventually finished his degree and got a well paying job. Then my mom went back to work. We moved into a more affluent neighborhood and I started Middle School in an upper middle class area. I was now attending classes with kids who had gone to a rich grammar school.

So here is where it got tricky for me. We now have 2 incomes and my dad was making good money…suddenly I am going from wearing 2nd hand and clothes from Kmart type places to Macy’s. I went to Summer Camp. I got a stereo for my birthday. We took a trip to the east coast.

Then my parents split and my mom and I moved to a duplex and attempted to pare down, but we had now grown accustomed to a “nicer” lifestyle. And slowly but surely she ended up in big debt.

My dad went on to be fairly successful, working as an executive for "big oil" (and then saw the fucked up crap going on) He consulted and now he has a successful eBay business. He’s been smart with investments and such, but he and his partner also like to travel and own some nicer things. However they are also very frugal. My dad constantly says “we are on a budget” “we need to be cost conscious” “no trips for us” even though they do take trips and never live hand to mouth…it’s so different than how I lived as a child.

When I left CA, I left a well paying job where I was responsible for $1M annual revenues. I was successful (trips, nice dinners, clothes, etc) but stressed out all the time. I moved to Portland to change and grow. I purposely did not take 2 job offers in my industry because I needed change. So for a few months I didn’t work and I started freaking out about money...so I took a temp job and it quickly turned into an opportunity for regular employment. However, it pays less and has less of a “title” than I was used to having. I used to be a Branch Manager for a huge staffing corporation with an Admin and now I am an Executive Admin. I know I made this choice on purpose, but I still struggle with my own internal crap about what I should be doing and making, etc.

I make enough to live on with a bit leftover that I put in savings, but not enough to take nice trips or buy “nicer” things…and don’t get me wrong, I am so grateful to be employed with a great company in this economy…but I still get stuck on the “I should be doing and making more” I still shop 2nd hand, clip coupons, shop sales, etc.

I feel like my relationship with class/jobs/money has been a roller coaster ...and my thoughts are ALL over the place, clearly.

I don’t feel like I had privilege until I was in Middle School, but others might say because I didn’t like on powdered milk, that I had it all my life. Can privilege be subjective?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Im glad that a few folks have brought up the whole thing where folks appropriate a class history that doesn't really belong to them.

Im trying to tease out a parallel around the very rich and the very poor. There is almost some kind of....I dunno...."money ceiling"? where the very wealthy and very poor are concerned. Some kind of untouchable glamorization.
I think of the very wealthy as they are shown on tv and how there is this mythical unicorn feeling attached to them through tabloids and media. Movie stars and singers with gold-plated dog bowls and $30 million homes are elevated to this "untouchable" (or maybe unimaginable) status.
There is "celebrity" attached through wealth. The idea that human beings are worth more if they are "worth" more.

But then, there is this weird dichotomy where the very poor also have a mythical unicorn thing attached. Think of Nuns and Monks who have no earthly possessions; I think society oftens sees this life as "magical" or "untouchable". The celebrity attached here is one that says "This person must be magical in other ways because they have no money". Glamorized for what might seem like a perfected lack of desire?

I think the rich get glamorized...

while The Poor get romanticized.

I think there's a certain 'romantic notion' attached to The Poor...The 'simple' lifestyle...'living simply'. I see certain aspects of Appalachia romanticized a lot. The 'quaint' lifestyle. It seems like all of the 'crap' of being poor gets shoved out of the picture, so all that remains is this 'simple' lifestyle.

I was talking to someone a while ago, and she was so poor, she had to make her own hand soap out of soap chips. As I was talking to someone else about it, it became this 'quaint' thing that she made her own soap.

I also see the romanticism in comments like, "They were so 'ethical'" or some other somesuch comments discussing the high morals of poor people (usually long after they've died or long after they were young enough to work two jobs or whatever). I'm not being very clear here, but...when younger people are poor, they're normally villainized as being lazy/drug addicts/whatnot...when poor people get older, they're usually romanticized or pitied. It's interesting to me, because I never hear these same type of comments from actual poor people. I never hear poor people who are struggling actually say, "But we're rich with a good work ethic" or "We don't have much, but we have 'love'". I mean, the only actual poor person I've ever heard say something like that is Loretta Lynn, and it was wellllllllll after she was actually living poor. Again, it's that 'romanticized' version of Poordom. Like there's something enviable in going days without food, or making your own soap, or watching your kids go hungry, or some other somesuch like that.

And then, I see this 'outsider looking in' version of Poordom. Like social workers are sometimes sooooo fascinated with The Poor/Poverty. And books like "Nickeled And Dimed" make (already rich) people even more wealthy, while the actual lived lives of The Poor are completely ignored. Theories are studied, yet when those who have actually LIVED it, say, "Um, no that won't work, because..." they're dismissed while those with more class privilege discuss how to 'fix' it (which usually entails a good round of victim blaming and boot-strapping).

I think some of this romanticizing has to do with religion (especially/primarily catholicism-xtianity-protestant work ethic), and all of the brainwashing contained in the bible about being poor and how it's so godly. There's a lot of glorification in 'suffering'.


Dylan

[Apocalipstic]

When I tell people I had tea in London they ask if I wore a hat or white gloves.

People in England just have tea, every day, they don't dress for it.

We do romanticize the rich and the poor in this country.

Honestly, the only time I have ever wore white gloves, (other than the mud covered ones my mother made me wear to Easter when I was 3), has been as a banquet waiter. White gloves are worn by servants, not people drinking tea.

[Martina]

i have had class privilege, and i have "suffered" in a way from classism. My parents were school teachers. They paid for me to go to college. They were both from eastern Kentucky, but i grew up in southwest Ohio. Where i lived, it was an everyday thing for people to make fun of Kentuckians. Sometimes i saw my mom cry because of cruel comments.

One neighbor, whose daughter was my close friend, seemed to especially enjoy hurting my mother. In his case, i think it came out of class resentment. He had not gone to college although he made a lot of money as a bricklayer. But he enjoyed taking down my mother who had, and he had this easy weapon. Half the teachers in the district came up from Kentucky colleges. And lots of other people too.

i run into or hear about a lot of creative and alternative folks who are second generation out of Appalachia. i think it gave us a perspective on class and culture. You were both inside -- no accent -- and outside. And you saw two different ways of life.

Appalachians always go home. Or back then they did. For me there were constant weekend and summer trips back to Kentucky. We had a cabin there where we spent the bulk of our summers. This going back "home" a lot was true for most of my generation. We saw the difference between rural poverty and whatever kind of "better" life we lived.

We also experienced other contrasts. Sometimes back home was more violent, sometimes less. Back home usually meant family feeling, good food, beautiful land, and, frequently, great music. Sometimes the cousins back home thought you were uppity for having the stuff you did and for talking differently.

Then i lived most of my adult life in Ann Arbor, Michigan. i got a graduate degree from the University of Michigan, but my previous degrees were from "lesser" universities. To my peers at UofM, i was too loud and clearly not Ivy League. It boggled some people's minds that i could still be smart. It always took people a while to get me. My closest friends were people like me -- people who had ended up at UofM in spite of the odds: a guy from rural Indiana, one from inner city Detroit, another from a border town in Arizona. i only made one upper middle class friend ever. And that was because she married one of my closest friends. It was a struggle, too. It was a struggle for them to overcome class differences. But she is a good friend now.

What is so ironic and interesting is that she feels like a poser in the upper middle class. While her parents were Georgetown educated lawyers, their parents were not -- not at all. So her parents were the unlikely to be at their school, in their world, folks. She went to an Ivy. And she never fit in. Even though she is very successful, when she went back to a reunion, the differences between her and her former classmates were even more marked.

i don't know. i see class boundaries as fairly powerful in our culture even though we can gain or lose wealth and access to class privileges.

Most of my friends all of my life have been people like me, people who have some sense of there being no place on earth for them. That is an exaggerated and self-pitying formulation. i think many queer people feel this way, but it's not exclusive to us. Plus we do have some enclaves. Most of them white and expensive to live in.

One of my closest friends is an African American gay man. He is from Flint, Michigan. Most of his family are auto workers, but his dad went to prison when he was young, and his mom raised their family on welfare. He had a tight and supportive extended family. He always had nice clothes and food and fun and, once his father was gone, safety.

He was the co-valedictorian of his high school class, but he came to the University of Michigan hoping to be a doctor and couldn't pass the freshman math classes. Flint schools were that bad. He also found very few African American gay men there and made friends and became lovers with white men. One of them is a trust fund kid and will never probably work. He got into med school and was too lazy to go. Another of his exes is a psychiatrist.

So my friend got his social work degree and became a therapist and activist. As accepted as he is in his family, being educated, successful and gay means he does not really have a real home back in Flint. Being working class and African American means he does not have a home in progressive, educated, gay-friendly Ann Arbor.

In time, he became more involved with helping African American gay youth and formed a group for African American gay men (some don't ID as gay) in Detroit. He started dating African American men. He eventually married one, a community college professor. He moved out of Ann Arbor and lives in Detroit.

He has found a place. But it was a long trip. For me the point is that for many, many Americans, there is some displacement in terms of class. And once that happens, it is very hard to find your way home again.

Not too long ago, i saw one of my cousins after years and years. He moved to a little town in a rural area of Ohio and found his home. He married a pig farmer's daughter and got a good job, which turned into a very good job. He volunteers. He raises pigs on the side. They have a huge piece of land they keep up.

They raised two kids, one of whom graduated from college and married a lawyer. He does have to travel for his job, and their little town recently was devastated when the major employer closed down. They are no anachronism. They are no rural ideal. But their lives and their personalities are congruent with most of those in their community.

For some reason, in my life, no matter how conventional appearing they are, the people i am close to do not have this congruence. They live with the double perspective of being inside and outside, or they have had to fight for and make their home. It did not come easily. Almost all my friends have had that displacement because of class and have lived with the consequences every day.

It's not something to feel sorry for yourself about or to be angry about. But it is something to acknowledge. My academic work was in the humanities. i had very little interest in gender theory. i worked on issues of class. i find it hard to think outside of that construct. Class differences and dislocations ramify through our lives endlessly. They are very complex. They don't have to haunt or disable you to affect you and be a huge influence on your life.

[Apocalipstic]

Jumping off of what Martina said, it KILLS me when people make fun of other states, when they don't have a leg to stand on. Ohio? making fun of Kentucky? OK, Vermont maybe (I have never been there but it sounds nice)can make fun of the South, But I have been several places in Ohio just as rural, redneck and Southern as anywhere in Tennessee.

All of California is not LA and San Francisco, all of New York is not NYC.

A woman in Upstate NY, who lives in a farm house sinking into a field near a very small rural town told me that as soon as she hears a Southern Accent, she assumes the person is uneducated and stupid. Really?????

Classism based on what state or town one lives in does not fly for me.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by Boots13

The U. S. Department of Labor describes the working poor as

“individuals who have spent at least twenty-seven weeks in the labor force, but whose income fell below the official poverty threshold.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty threshold is $14,763 for a family of four.

So we are labeled and assigned a social class by our own government, no matter how fluid social class has become. I'm pushing 50 and cant remember a time (in my lifetime) the economy has been so unstable. All the biggies are affected..Tech, Pharm, Oil, Wall Street, Banking, Real Estate, Insurance...nothing seems stable.

Our economy is so unstable that my ideas of Social Class (re: money, assets, income, futures) are rapidly changing as well. Is the instability changing (or at least lending compassion) to our social structures? I hope so.
I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to reiterate that my perception of economic social class in North America is undergoing a huge shift. White Collar is no longer bastardizing our economy, that Blue Collar feels honest to me, and that the Working Poor with its broader base, is no longer thought of as a lazy population. Poverty and deficit has nested in places its never been in my lifetime (Wall Street, Real Estate, Tech, Oil) . Poverty and financial oblivion is a place that any of us are headed, at any time. And as our country continues to corkscrew itself further into economic distress I can tell you that the economic "markers" and expectations (old stereotypes) of social class seem to be changing.

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Melissa

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

How do you define Social Class?

It is very difficult to put a finger in it in the US.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

How do you define Social Class?

It is very difficult to put a finger in it in the US.

Well, social class, I default back to English definitions which aren't related to income. Plus the English class system has no meaning or equivalent in the US. This is why many people emigrated here, to free themselves from a rigid class system.

For me, in the US, there are no social classes, just income brackets. An individual can move through various income brackets in the course of his or her lifetime. I think people in the US make assumptions and create stereotypes about other people based on what they perceive they own or earn. In England I'm working class because that was the class I was born into. In the US I think I am considered middle class because of my income bracket and education level. I default back to working class because I don't know of any other way to think of myself. However, I guess people would look at me strangely in the US because by US definitions I am middle class. But since I work 60+hours a week I call that "working" class lol. But I do get confused when I see people saying they hate it when the middle classes approripate the identity of the working class. I can't wrap my brain around this statement. What does that mean? I think I am coming at this thread from a totally different angle so I am just going to keep reading.



Melissa

[Waldo]

While I agree that talking about how much money one has, spends or earns is often tacky - particularly so outside of one's closest friends. I also think that this "we mustn't discuss" attitude is part of the problem that lead to this most recent financial downturn.

Our inability to say "I don't have the money to do X" is often fueled by a misunderstanding about what other people really have.

My experience of those who have money is spot on with the adage that they rarely talk about it. Due to the industry I work in I would venture to say that I am on a first name basis with more millionaires than the average person and with most of them you would never know it. Not just because they don't talk about it, but they don't spend like it. They don't drive the latest cars, wear the flashiest clothes, take the most expensive trips.

Their wealth will likely last their lifetime and they'll have a nice large estate to pass down to their heirs.

I also know a good number of very rich folks who will likely wind up with nothing in relatively short order because of bad decisions and a lack of restraint. They DO drive the latest, and often multiple, cars. They wear designer clothing and exensive jewelry and they travel first class all the time. They consume constantly.

How interesting a world it would be if one's salary and net worth were publicly available. I wonder if that would change how we view money, things, wealth. Just a thought.

[Lady_Wu]

First, Medusa, conratulations on the promotion and second, congratulations on a great thread! I am on disability and make almost no money but do not consider myself poor. I am rich in education (MA in Philosophy), have taught University, and have been a librarian, paid and unpaid, for most of my life. I think that my attitude gives me enough. I study online at a Buddhist college and offline on my own. I have a roof over my head, food to eat, and cable internet. I have clothes I like to wear. So I do not consider myself "poor" at all. I do tend to bristle when I hear people talk disparaginly about people on SSD/SSI. I had 2 strokes at an early age, plus have MS, RSD, and fibromyalgia. This is not my fault-I would rather be working. So would most I've met!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Well, social class, I default back to English definitions which aren't related to income. Plus the English class system has no meaning or equivalent in the US. This is why many people emigrated here, to free themselves from a rigid class system.

For me, in the US, there are no social classes, just income brackets. An individual can move through various income brackets in the course of his or her lifetime. I think people in the US make assumptions and create stereotypes about other people based on what they perceive they own or earn. In England I'm working class because that was the class I was born into. In the US I think I am considered middle class because of my income bracket and education level. I default back to working class because I don't know of any other way to think of myself. However, I guess people would look at me strangely in the US because by US definitions I am middle class. But since I work 60+hours a week I call that "working" class lol. But I do get confused when I see people saying they hate it when the middle classes approripate the identity of the working class. I can't wrap my brain around this statement. What does that mean? I think I am coming at this thread from a totally different angle so I am just going to keep reading.



Melissa

Makes sense

I think in the US they wanted to be different from England in the beginning and not have the whole "Nobility" thing. So class is more based on money, education and what one does for a living, than on one's ancestral heritage. The US wanted to be a nation where anyone could make it rich and be "accepted" and a part of the "Upper Class".

I agree that it is very confusing and the more I read and study about it, the more I do not get where the lines are.

I do think it is insane that the poverty line in the US is less than $15,000 for a family of 4. I think one person would have severe difficulty with that amount, let alone four.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Makes sense

I think in the US they wanted to be different from England in the beginning and not have the whole "Nobility" thing. So class is more based on money, education and what one does for a living, than on one's ancestral heritage. The US wanted to be a nation where anyone could make it rich and be "accepted" and a part of the "Upper Class".

I agree that it is very confusing and the more I read and study about it, the more I do not get where the lines are.

I do think it is insane that the poverty line in the US is less than $15,000 for a family of 4. I think one person would have severe difficulty with that amount, let alone four.

It's now a whopping $22k, as of 2009: http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09poverty.shtml

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Makes sense

I think in the US they wanted to be different from England in the beginning and not have the whole "Nobility" thing. So class is more based on money, education and what one does for a living, than on one's ancestral heritage. The US wanted to be a nation where anyone could make it rich and be "accepted" and a part of the "Upper Class".

I agree that it is very confusing and the more I read and study about it, the more I do not get where the lines are.

I do think it is insane that the poverty line in the US is less than $15,000 for a family of 4. I think one person would have severe difficulty with that amount, let alone four.

It's an insanely low amount. I keep thinking about some Senator who did this experiment to show that it was possible to live off minimum wage. He, his wife and two teenagers decided they were going to live on minimum wage for one month to prove it was doable. Urgh. I wish I could remember his name.

I think this notion of class comes into play when we start to lay meanings on top of the income bracket. We start to interpret what that income level says about a person. And this is where the danger lies and where all the assumptions and stereotypes start to accumulate. eg. the assumption that if you are poor you must be lazy. We start to layer income brackets with more and more meanings. Sometimes those meanings are romaticized as Dylan was saying (poor but happy, the noble poor etc) and sometimes they just villify (poor due to laziness, poor therefore uneducated, ignorant). But the meanings and assumptions, for me, don't equal class. I think we tend to lump anything related to income level together and call it class when we need to start separating out some of the issues related to the assumptions and stereotypes.

Anyway, hope I'm making sense

Melissa

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by Melissa

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

Hi Melissa - sorry I missed your response to my reply. I agree partly with you, in that the Government is defining an economic threshold...but I feel that with that definition comes a determination of class. And in this case, economic class.

But what rips me about our government are the inequalities that come with that determination (or threshold). Even though class is a fluid hierarchy in our society, it is full of inequalities, inconsistencies and contradictions (taxing middle America vs tax loops for big business, big money, old money, etc)

I think North America's class distinctions are complicated because they are fluid (we are not born and forever labeled by a Caste system) but still come with a stigma that my be detrimental to those being labeled. I have that bias as evidenced in my prior post (middle class is hard working, upper class are crooks..etc).

just my opinion on a touchy and complicated subject.

[Martina]

Class is very real. It's not just in our heads. It's who you know, who your parents know. It's the assumptions and categories you were taught as a child. There are things they know exist in the world for them, realities they accept as stable, that i have a hard time even believing in.

There are some things they don't have that my African American friend from Flint, Michigan has. My friend's family never ever disowns or cuts out a family member. They may be in jail. They may be queer (which is not approved of), but they are always welcome home. Their behavior is less important than the fact that they are family. They do not have to prove anything to anyone to be accepted. i have not found that to be true sometimes for people raised in the upper middle classes.

We enact class all the time. It's impossible to think outside of class without doing lots and lots of work. And we injure ourselves and others with assumptions and fears about class. Not necessarily brutally. i know lots of proud working class people. i think that if people are not desperately poor and they fit in with the people around them, they are as likely to be happy as anyone else.

Class does not determine happiness or satisfaction with life. But it is ever-present. It is relentless. Much harder to see outside of than racism, sexism, and homophobia -- although those are tough.

Class is determinative in ways that people constantly underestimate. Two and three generations in the upper middle class does not really turn you into a member of the upper middle class. It takes a long time to learn and unlearn the way of looking at the world that your social class created in you.

My parents came from world that distrusted outsiders. Outsiders were likely to despise you. We were vigilant about that in ways that have much more to do with living in poverty among a less respected class of people than any reality i lived on a daily basis. In fact, i was very privileged in my home town. i lived in a small house in the nicest suburb. i had educated parents doing a job that gave them some recognition -- for a while my dad was the high school basketball coach -- the town's only high school. i was an only child and felt pretty safe. i wandered around the neighborhood and the woods freely (it was the sixties). i had a good good life.

But i have had to tame that reaction to other people "mugging" me that causes my inner city students to get in fights with one another all the time. i have a lot of those same assumptions in my bones -- about the world looking down on me and mine.

i know that my friend whose parents worked their way up to great security and wealth from relatively lower middle class roots -- that their family is riddled with anxiety about losing it all. The people she went to college with -- at an elite college -- were not raised that way.

Class is, IMO, the primary prism through which we see the world.