Japanese reactor crisis

[Julie]

What about those in Australia?
They are so close to the Island of Japan - Much closer than the United States.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by wolfbittenpoet

Check with doc or CDC. I am sure if your work is a necessary thing they will have some solution.

Thanks and I did (should have thought of that).
It is the same molecular component.
Take LOTS of Steroids (prednisone) with Iodide - That I knew, as I have had multiple nuclear testing done.

So, NO - there is no replacement. Those of us who are allergic to Iodine are allergic to the Iodide - DON'T TAKE IF YOU ARE.

Right now, there is no alternative. I am going to call a friend who knows a Chinese herbalist to find out.

[wolfbittenpoet]

Another thing that can be done though it does nothing about inhaled radiation are lead lined throat shields.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

Thank you! My NBC training is 25 years out of date (when did I get so OLD?) so I appreciate this.

One thing I want to add. The Iodine isotope to be concerned about can *only* get to your thyroid through ingestion of food stuffs that are contaminated--in specific this means do NOT drink the milk of cows exposed to the radiation. So IF we have a truly worst-case scenario--and it is unclear, at the time of this writing, whether we will--one would probably want to stock up on milk products but I would *not* suggest a run on your local Fred Meyers or Safeway at this point.

A whole cascade of things would still have to go wrong before we started to see levels of radiation, wafting across the Pacific, that would give us concern. At present, that cascade has not happened--which is not to say it won't.

Medusa, I'm still trying to find some numbers that I can crunch to answer your question about whether we can predict how hot this plant is going to get. Even IF one of the cores melts down, that still doesn't mean that the absolute worst is going to happen because the floor of the containment vessel is designed to--hopefully--contain the radioactive slag.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

Actually, for the most part the radiation would be about the same. In oversimplifying things yesterday, I made one minor error which I'll now correct.

EARLY nuclear weapons were fission weapons--which split atoms into two (relatively easy) while later (H-bomb) weapons use fission which takes two smaller atoms and fuses them into one (a hydrogen bomb can be thought of as creating a very small, low-mass star in an instant). The actual radioactivity release is because a fast-fission reaction is used to compress a critical mass into a very small space, causing fusion to occur. But the bulk of the radiation is coming from the fission explosion, not the fusion explosion. (Fission is a 'dirty' process, fusion is a 'clean' process)

So for our purposes here, we can treat the radiation coming from a power plant to be the same kind of radiation coming from a bomb because the source is pretty much the same. I made this point yesterday and was correct but for the wrong reasons.

For the most part, unless there is a catastrophic release (and by this I mean the molten core eats through the containment vessel floor, goes into the ground and hits the water table at which point there would be an explosive release of steam which would blow a lot of dirt into the air), we will not see a lot of very hot material. The steam being released is not going to make it the distance across the Pacific to the West coast of the US without being severely diluted.

Also keep in mind that there is no radiation being released that you are not already exposed to in the course of a year. You aren't exposed to the isotopes--and this is why we should hope that there is no explosive release of steam caused by the slag hitting the water table--without a particulate material to adhere to because the isotopes are rather heavy and wouldn't travel very far from the site on their own. Everyone freaks out with the word radiation--and it's a scary word but this is important to keep in mind--

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

[dreadgeek]

So, I've subscribed to a couple of IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) news feeds for the duration of this event. I will post them here so there is a clearinghouse of the most recent information so as it becomes available, I'll try to stay on top of it and make sure that it gets here.

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 14:10 UTC)

The IAEA Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) continues to monitor the status of the nuclear power plants in Japan that were affected by the devastating earthquake and consequent tsunami.

All units at the Fukushima Daini, Onagawa, and Tokai nuclear power plants are in a safe and stable condition (i.e. cold shutdown).

The IAEA remains concerned over the status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, where sea water injections to cool the reactors in Units 1, 2 and 3 are continuing. Attempts to return power to the entire Daiichi site are also continuing.

After explosions at both Units 1 and 3, the primary containment vessels of both Units are reported to be intact. However, the explosion that occurred at 04:25 UTC on 14 March at the Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2 may have affected the integrity of its primary containment vessel. All three explosions were due to an accumulation of hydrogen gas.

A fire at Unit 4 occurred on 14 March 23:54 UTC and lasted two hours. The IAEA is seeking clarification on the nature and consequences of the fire.

The IAEA continues to seek details about the status of all workers, reactors and spent fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

An evacuation of the population from the 20-kilometre zone around Fukushima Daiichi is in effect. The Japanese have advised that people within a 30-km radius shall take shelter indoors. Iodine tablets have been distributed to evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.

A 30-kilometre no-fly zone has been established around the Daiichi plant. Normal civil aviation beyond this zone remains uninterrupted. The Japan Coast Guard established evacuation warnings within 10 kilometres of Fukushima Daiichi and 3 kilometres of Fukushima Daini.

The IAEA and several other UN organizations held a meeting at 11:00 UTC today to discuss recent developments and coordinate activities related to consequences of the earthquake and tsunami. The meeting was called under the framework of the Joint Radiation Emergency Management Plan of the International Organizations, and this group expects to work closely together in the days ahead.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ffects-110314/

[Medusa]

You know, AJ, I was thinking about what you said about the people who are working at these plants while others evacuate. They really are heroes.

I read an article on Sunday that talked about how the "control room" for the first reactor had reached 200 degrees. I wasn't clear on what they mean by 'control room', if it is a room with lots of computers and people punching buttons (although I can't imagine a computer being functional at that heat) or if it's a different type of control room that is more mechanical.

Either way, it made me wonder about what conditions these people must be working in and how exhausted they must be. Definitely thinking of these folks today as they work diligently and possibly expose themselves to intense radiation in order to try to help all of us.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Linus

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ffects-110314/

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by suebee

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

I checked Health Canada but they didn't have any statement. And neither does BC Health:

http://www.gov.bc.ca/health/

[Medusa]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapc...japan.nuclear/

[Linus]

I have a question: would the potassium iodide be helpful for dogs and cats?

[Medusa]

I found this:

http://www.mbah.state.ms.us/emergenc...ms/ki_vets.htm


Also called my vet and she said that as long as the pups don't have an iodine allergy or sensitivity, they should be fine dosed as a child (and added that she was going to need to research this further because she doesn't have anything "official" on this but that she had received a couple of calls about it since Sunday).


edited to add: child dosages would be based on the animal's weight and she is guestimating that 20mg would be plenty for a cat and that it would go up from there but she wants to confer with another vet before telling me anything "on the record".

Anyone have a vet they can ask too? Im curious what the consensus is?

[Andrew, Jr.]

I have been watching the news on Japan. I am not understanding what is going to happen to the outter core if it totally comes down or falls apart. It is already damaged.

I am thinking about the long term effects of radiation on people and animals. Harmful just isn't answering my question. The ripple effect of this crisis is going to last generations if you ask me.

[dreadgeek]

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 20:35 UTC)
The Japanese government today requested assistance from the IAEA in the areas of environmental monitoring and the effects of radiation on human health, asking for IAEA teams of experts to be sent to Japan to assist local experts. Preparations for these missions are currently under way.

The missions will draw on IAEA resources and may also possibly involve Response and Assistance Network (RANET) and Member States' capabilities.

This development follows the IAEA's offer to Japan of its "Good Offices" - i.e. making available the Agency's direct support and coordination of international assistance.

RANET is a network of resources made available by IAEA Member States that can be offered in the event of a radiation incident or emergency. Coordination of RANET is done by the IAEA within the framework of the Convention on Assistance in the Case of a Nuclear Accident or Radiological Emergency.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/...iupdate01.html

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I have been watching the news on Japan. I am not understanding what is going to happen to the outter core if it totally comes down or falls apart. It is already damaged.

I am thinking about the long term effects of radiation on people and animals. Harmful just isn't answering my question. The ripple effect of this crisis is going to last generations if you ask me.

Andrew:

I will do my best to explain to the limit of my own understanding.

IF the worst of all possible scenarios were to happen and one or more reactors experienced a catastrophic meltdown of the entire pile and IF it then melted through the primary containment vessel AND the outer containment vessel and IF it then melted into the earth and had enough energy to keep melting material until it reached the water table THEN there could be an explosive release of steam and what would then be highly radioactive dirt into the environment. But notice that there are a lot of conditionals before it gets there. A lot of things would have to go wrong for things to get that bad.

However, that is vanishingly unlikely while still having a probability that is larger than 0 (where 0 means that there's no chance of it happening and 1 means that it is certain to happen).

As I understand it, right now NONE of the reactors are undergoing active fission. This is good. That means that all they have to do is keep pumping water into the cores, keeping them submerged, until such time as the decay heat reaches a manageable level. Think about the inside of the core like you would either fireworks (the kind you buy from the Boy Scouts) or a hot pan. When I was a kid and we would do fireworks on the 4th of July, my job was to fill up a bucket or washtub with water. My dad would light the fireworks, they'd burn, we'd dunk them in water and the next day pour the water out and then dispose of the fireworks. So the reactor is the firework, the sea water represents the bucket of water. Even after the fuel rods are pulled from the core (meaning they are no longer undergoing fission) there is residual heat--this is called the decay heat. That's why the cores have to be covered by water until the rods and the core cool down.

The fires (and as I was writing this another fire broke out) are actually happening in a storage area for spent fuel rods. The problem is that the area around this pool is now too hot (radioactively, not thermally) for workers to approach to put water in to fill the pools to keep the spent fuel rods (which are in cases) from becoming uncovered. This is where I wish we had more sophisticated robotics.


Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

i read they were considering using heliocopters to drop water into the pool.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Martina

i read they were considering using heliocopters to drop water into the pool.

I'd read that but now I'm hearing they are rethinking that.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Andrew:

I will do my best to explain to the limit of my own understanding.

IF the worst of all possible scenarios were to happen and one or more reactors experienced a catastrophic meltdown of the entire pile and IF it then melted through the primary containment vessel AND the outer containment vessel and IF it then melted into the earth and had enough energy to keep melting material until it reached the water table THEN there could be an explosive release of steam and what would then be highly radioactive dirt into the environment. But notice that there are a lot of conditionals before it gets there. A lot of things would have to go wrong for things to get that bad.

However, that is vanishingly unlikely while still having a probability that is larger than 0 (where 0 means that there's no chance of it happening and 1 means that it is certain to happen).

As I understand it, right now NONE of the reactors are undergoing active fission. This is good. That means that all they have to do is keep pumping water into the cores, keeping them submerged, until such time as the decay heat reaches a manageable level. Think about the inside of the core like you would either fireworks (the kind you buy from the Boy Scouts) or a hot pan. When I was a kid and we would do fireworks on the 4th of July, my job was to fill up a bucket or washtub with water. My dad would light the fireworks, they'd burn, we'd dunk them in water and the next day pour the water out and then dispose of the fireworks. So the reactor is the firework, the sea water represents the bucket of water. Even after the fuel rods are pulled from the core (meaning they are no longer undergoing fission) there is residual heat--this is called the decay heat. That's why the cores have to be covered by water until the rods and the core cool down.

The fires (and as I was writing this another fire broke out) are actually happening in a storage area for spent fuel rods. The problem is that the area around this pool is now too hot (radioactively, not thermally) for workers to approach to put water in to fill the pools to keep the spent fuel rods (which are in cases) from becoming uncovered. This is where I wish we had more sophisticated robotics.


Cheers
Aj

Yes, I have to say that I was quite intrigued with the robotic capabilities used to deal with the Gulf deep water oil spill. Amazing, but a very different set of variable.