Changing last names

[PoeticSilence]

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.

You're right, and I was the one who wasn't clear.

[Kobi]

[quote=tantalizingfemme;860840]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth.

[tantalizingfemme]

[quote=Kobi;860846]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth.

Thanks. Was just checking.

[Ginger]

I like how we're all playing so nice with each other.

[tantalizingfemme]

As a feminist who believes in supporting all women, without judgment, I just want to say yay to those who do choose to change their last name and yay to those who don't. It all boils down to personal choice.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

[VintageFemme]

Originally Posted by PoeticSilence

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

I would definitely take my partner's name. And not for any of the reasons to or not to that I've been reading about in the thread, but simply because it's a lovely old school tradition and one that I personally find endearing and a small measure or token in sharing of my love. I adore the idea of the sharing in a name and two becoming one and I would have no issue in taking her name.

Having said that though, I do have to also say that I really like what you two have done together. It's sweet and unique and seems quite apropos. Nicely done.

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family".

I guess the first that I think when I read this is so what? What if they choose to do that?

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

The history is true. This is certain.
Taking a name can be seen as you say just another brand of the status quo. True.
Not taking a spouses name or using a hyphen makes a statement as well. True
The fact that lesbians and gays want to get married at all is in a way a support of the old time heterosexual institution.
i would marry my partner in support of equality. i will take her name as a statement for self that i belong and She wants me. There can be many reasons for taking the name or hyphenating a name.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

All of what you say is probably true, and were it not for tradition and the norm of "our" culture to take the "masculine" surname, we would all have our own surnames forever and ever amen.

I work/worked with a mostly hispanic population; mostly fresh from Mexico or first generation citizens, where the women (most not all) did not take their husband's name when they married, instead they kept their family names.
They were just as married as i was, just as committed as we are...it really is a matter of culture and personal taste.

There really is no right or wrong, no good or bad, it is a very personal choice. I am no better or worse than you for taking Kasey's name, but for "us" it has helped when i'm in the hospital, among other things. She would have taken my last name when we married, but it is hard to spell, and mispronounced
constantly. Even though it was my hetro married name, after 22 years it was mine, but neither one of us wanted to keep it.

I have no issue with keeping your own (collective your) name, rock on with
the freedom of making personal choices...it wasn't all that long ago when it wasn't even possible to marry, let alone change your name without an expensive court mess.

[girl_dee]

i've never changed my name... even when i married my ex husband i never changed my name. For *me* it feels like part of the lump of other misogynistic traditions that women were required to do just because we are women.

i appreciate that others do not feel this way and i think it's great that we have the choice!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

i've never changed my name... even when i married my ex husband i never changed my name. For *me* it feels like part of the lump of other misogynistic traditions that women were required to do just because we are women.

i appreciate that others do not feel this way and i think it's great that we have the choice!

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I'm not saying every case is. but again, I wanna hear from the butches: who of you areore than happy to take a femme's last name instead of the other way round. cause it's pretty rare to read that they'd want that. instead they'd be "honoured" to have the femme take their name. I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't have a choice but I AM saying if it really honestly was, like poeplemkeep saying, just having the same name, it would NOT be so lopsided.

I'm only going from what I see one the boards. my personal life resembles nothing close to "the dance" on the boards here. for example I only know about four butches (I mean those that I actually know in person) who use "he." one uses "they". the rest I know in person use she.

almost none of them believe in marriage. I think I'm one of a rare handfew that has.

so I am presently ONLY speaking to what I see on the boards. and that's butches very rarely take femmes last names. so it can't possibly be just because it's to share a name only. otherwise there would be a greater number taking femme's names.

but f course everyone is exempt from thinking about it. If anybody wants to just consider me a dick and dismiss what I'm saying, that's fine too. I'm going to step out of this convo here as I don't think anything I've said is going to be heard aside from accusing people of misogyny. no worries. I don't mind being fairly alone in my corner of thought. and I mean no disrespect to peoples marriages.

carry on. and all that.

I hear you and I think your logic is sound and your question is valid and it's something that I'm wondering about too.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Dee, help me understand...total sincerity here. Explain how you being a submissive, deferring to your Sir/Syr 24/7 is not more deferential than simply taking a person's name? I mean, that IS the dynamic, no? You submit (defer), to her.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with your relationship/dynamic, I am just trying to understand why you would see taking your Syr/Sir's name (if you married) as fitting in with being a "misogynistic tradition" (and therefore problematic), when your daily dynamic includes your deferring to her?

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

[Martina]

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

Do you equate a femme taking the butches name as being deferential to that butch?

Not at all. That is what I assumed that was what you were saying. Or perhaps you only see it that way in terms of biological males? I thought you were saying this is why you did not take your ex-husband's name? Or perhaps I didn't understand your post?

[Bard]

We have friends that have been together for quite a while one of them came into the relationship with a child from a former marriage they also have child from AI that the more butch of the two carried. When they got married the butch took the femmes last name her married name so that now the whole family has the same name. Yes if Desd had wanted me to take her name I would have considered it my only reason for not wishing to would have been that I am the only of my fathers children to carry his last name. I was moved to tears when Desd want to take my last name

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think it's generational in part. The pendulum seems to have swung back some. I think it's too bad if someone is pressured to change her name when she doesn't want to. Worse than too bad. But if you want to, if it means something to you to change it, I say go for it. It can mean a lot of good things, mostly that we are forming a family. We are not just lovers, we are kin. We share our property, our place in this world, our fates.

Speaking of property, I know happily married people who have never even merged their finances. LONG married folks. One of my best friend's best friend -- she and her husband cover the expenses 50-50 and have separate accounts. I have no idea if they are even each other's beneficiaries. I assume so. And I really don't have a judgement because it works for them.

But for me, the ideal is for people to pull together. It's a long road, and it is good to know that other person is all in.

Yes, I have noticed more and more the separate account approach. I think that whatever feels comfortable for the couple (assuming it is comfortable for both), is ok. We all define the choices we make differently. For one person, changing their name is heteronormative, for another, it creates a feeling of unity.