Masculine of Center -- the term

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

also generalization that the gender politics are "so fucked up" - so are all of us who use these terms just wrong about gender? i mean? that is kind of overreaching.

If you use them about yourselves, no. If you argue for it as an umbrella term, then yes, fucked up -- on this issue.

[JustBeingMe]

Just to clarify something I said in my post above. I wasn't saying don't discuss it. I do think it needs to have some clarity added to it and see how others feel about it. I just hope it doesn't get that heated in here with pov's being stated or anything else. I was also saying it wouldn't hurt to have more clarity from the person that actually coined the term MoC., that's all.

[julieisafemme]

I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins. I was at the BV conference and knew of The Brown Boi Project (BBP)before the conference ever happened. Brown Boi is an amazing organization doing incredible work all over the country. They work in men's prisons, they work with women and children, they work with all men and women of color who identify with masculinity. They have a cohort program that mentors young masculine women and men to take on an active role in their communities working for gender justice.

Cole, the founder of BBP, is inspiring and I admire her. Every time we have attended an event for BBP we have felt embraced, welcomed and loved.

I understand that the term MoC is not something everyone resonates with. That is ok! As Aishah said don't use it! I just wish people would look beyond the term to to the woman who coined it and the good work she does. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that!

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Martina

You said that you wouldn't lose much sleep if some folks felt excluded. That is opting out of the discussion. The author of the article quoted in the race thread used the argument that because of the provenance of the term -- progressive PoC -- it should not be opposed. He said things like we spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves and said that the reason that some folks are upset is the lost privilege of naming (could be true). He also had this poetic final paragraph encouraging people to just ACCEPT it.

No. The gender politics are objectionable. Provenance is not all. Sorry.

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

and i still haven't seen any discussion of the gender politics that actually takes into context how b. cole and bbp define and understand the "masculine" part of "masculine-of-center." i'd like to see someone actually argue with how masculine is understood in that term rather than just claiming it is fucked up.

[nowandthen]

I posted in the red zone a post of a friend, I did so in my on going effort to talk about whiteness,not BV or the history of the term MoC. The post for me help me see more ways I need to self-reflect. Then this thread pop up, so I want to be in it since it is my lived and life's work.

I find it interesting that the term masculinity or masculine are not exposed for also being part of the language of the western medical system. I am asked all the time what pronoun I use, I now answer the question this way, "why don;t you pick one because it is not about how I see me it is how you see me" meaning I am guilty as well of categorization, butch's do this, men do that, etc. we live in a world that needs difference to place a value on something, race,gender and sex are no different. I am learning to unlearn everything I thought was truth. It is hard and ideas and beliefs die hard as well in me. That said, I support and respect those who like gender roles as they define them no one needs my approval.

I think I used the term masculinity for lack of language to name myself. The markers that have come to be known as masculine are just that markers to police that others, social and political enforce, starting with our birth certificate. Masculinity is a made up category made by a structural system to exclude more than include. Patriarchy and its need for misogyny , specifically white patriarchy has made its self center. So, I like many used the language available to me to name myself. The history we are taught comes from and through White supremacy and that is always where I find the conversation struggles the most about gender representation. The is no universal narrative, no history that is the same in relation to race,gender,sex, and nation. I find the limitations of language is also born from this same genealogy.

I come to this like most of us from a very personnel place, often my first response to someones visibility is my fear of invisibility. The Medical Industrial complex has reduce the human experience to two kinds, Female and male. That is the truth, I did not make it up but I work to destroy it. I had many years of reparative therapy as a child, I had many lesbians shame me for not being what the named to be a dyke, I have white privilege, First Nation status, I am mostly able-bodied with a few ouch here and there. What I do not have is a mental illness and all the gender language we use stems from that, what is normal and deviant, what can be measured can be controlled and changed.

Race is always in the conversation because it is, the material conditions of difference have real human cost. Gender is also always a factor, if you ask me how I see myself, again I always say white why, because it matters race is not about the [I]other it is about self first. Anyway, I must walk the dog chow for now

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Boots13

So, in my rep to aishah I stated that I had NO idea that MoC was coined by a butch POC. And yet my reluctance to accept the term MoC was centrifugal to CENTER and fbecause of bias I've been subjected to or seen, Center has WHITE MALE PRIVILEGE connotations...

In mainstream, center is white. Center is patriarchal. Center is biased, Center is privilege...and that is why I have a hard time with MoCenter...I dont want to perpetuate the privilege...but then in my discussion last night I was politely and diplomatically informed that MASCULINE HAS PRIVILEGE...that my presentation as masculine perpetuates privilege in certain arenas...

I am sorry that its getting heated and defensive/aggressive in our discussions, but I think its worthy, necessary and highly educational to have them...at least it is for me...

Yes masculine has privilege! That is exactly what BBP is all about! It is working for gender justice and responsible masculinities in communities of color.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

one function of white privilege is getting to have a contextless, supposedly ahistorical, abstract discussion dominated by white folks about the gender politics of a term central to the poc community. i don't agree with everything in that article, but i do agree with that. this thread is proof of it.

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

[Corkey]

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Corkey

OFFS. Look if the term is to include Butch, Transmen Boy and Boi, then those who are said identity do have a say as to the use as it pertains TO them. White or not, MoC does not make that distinction in its term. If they want to be inclusive then BE inclusive and stop with the nastiness. I'm out one almost white guy down.

who has been nasty and uninclusive? i see a lot of freaking out about people who use moc being mean and uninclusive, but i haven't actually seen any evidence of people using moc being mean and uninclusive. the term is meant to describe people WHO IDENTIFY WITH IT. that is why it is often used TOGETHER with words like butch, stud, aggressive, boi, trans, etc.

[Toughy]

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Communities and conferences get to define themselves as they see fit and sometimes it's damn hard when white folk are not in charge of how that definition comes about.

I'm done......this brings up painful stuff for me...didn't know I had not resolved all of it.....that was a damn hard painful weekend and at the same time one of the most uplifting experiences I ever had.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

The term is not intended to be used only by the PoC community. Is it?

I disagree with Julie too.

If the term gains currency, will anyone KNOW who created it? Where it came from?

No. They will know that masculinity is the defining characteristic of the people included. They will know that lots and lots of people believe there is a center and all that implies. They will know that. And that's all.

The term promotes binary thinking. It valorizes masculinity as the quality without which there is no ID, no community, no solidarity. The thing that defines and unites.

It was created for and by communities of color. And yes of course masculinity is the defining characteristic of those included! That is the point! BUT the term is the antithesis of binary thinking. Masculinity is not male. It can be claimed by any gender. The world we live in, our culture gives privilege to masculinity no matter what gender claims it. Since that is the reality those who are given that privilege must examine it and take responsibility for it.

People appropriate any number of terms and identities that they know nothing about, have not lived and have no business owning. Not much we can do about that. MoC serves a purpose in the communities of color where it was born. What is wrong with that?

[Dude]

Originally Posted by aishah

i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

edits to add
zero problems with being called stud

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I went through a huge learning curve about this term in a 3 day time frame at the BV conference. There is a thread on this site that goes through that entire episode. Find it if you want to see how it went and you will get to see my process in it. I did suggest BV tweak the verbiage a bit so the white butch folk would calm down. There was a lot of un-examined racism on the part of many involved.

The term MoC, like the term Stud comes from communities of color. If white folk 'feel it' then good. If white folk don't feel it, then don't claim it. If you only spend time in white non-academic culture you most likely will not ever hear MoC or Stud. I have seen huge amounts of outrage from white folk over calling a butch a stud.

Thanks for posting Toughy. For me its not about claiming this, actually my reaction is to NOT stake any claim... but for me, its about trying to understand this.
Just when I think I "get it" a new term is introduced and it shakes the underpinnings of my "comfort zone" ...and thats a GOOD thing.

I will look for the thread.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Dude

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

It was created for and by communities of color.

The definition doesn't say that

Masculine of center (MoC), which, in its evolving definition, recognizes the cultural breadth and depth of identity for lesbian/queer womyn and gender nonconforming/trans people who tilt toward the masculine side of the gender spectrum including a wide range of identities such as butch, stud, aggressive/AG, macha, dom, trans masculine, boi, etc. (B. Cole, 2008)

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by aishah

OH MY EFFING GOD.

martina, i have NOT SAID ONCE that people should not examine the term or take it apart.

i HAVE tried to introduce context for how the term came about and how and why it is used.

my point is trying to have an abstract discussion about a term that is not rooted in its history and context is hella fucked up. pretty much all the posts in this thread are against the term being used. few have bothered to acknowledge where the term came from, why it came about in the first place, or bothered to try to understand why other people might find it useful. ZERO context whatsoever.

oh, and i did read what you said. you out and out said that i am arguing against examining something critically JUST because it came out of progressive poc community. that is DISGUSTING and minimizing and if anyone here thinks that about me then clearly y'all don't know me all that well.

Aishah, I am glad to see you posting a bit more again. What I am going to say may offend you, I hope not. Many people here from this site were at the first BV conference here in the SF Bay Area. Some of the people that are founders of BV and/or Board Members are members from this site and/or the old DASH site. Brown Bois is not BV but Brown Bois and BV do have members/participants active in both groups. Here on this site when BV first started to use this term MOC there was much discussion on this site. Maybe someone who has the technical savy will provide the link for you.

I am an older POC Butch and I am not fond of the MOC for my own identity. I came out and of age in the early 70s primarily in a B-F POC community in Los Angeles. There were many of us that used the term Butch for our self identity. It was not a popular or venerated label/identity back then with white lesbians. Mind you, this is my experience. We do have female identified butches here that have another experience.

I have had brief communication with Cole about MOC and she knows how I feel about the term MOC. Cole is younger then me and said this is how it was for her growing up in Oakland. POC not being comfortable with the term Butch.

What I don't understand is I see many people claiming the right to ID as they desire but yet when they see someone that may not see the identity of Butch as they do for themselves, all of a sudden it is not okay to "self identity." ( I am not inferring this is your bias.)

[Martina]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

And yes of course masculinity is the defining characteristic of those included!

Why is that an of course?

[nowandthen]

Yes race matters, no MoC is not only for non-white folks, though it finds its roots in communities of color. I am not saying anyone needs to accept me or how I name myself that is the point. Therefore I ask's everyone I meet to self identify, yes it is a lot of work, but resisting my several forms of privilege is work, hard work, painful work, healing work. So I will keep saying it Race matters in everything and it is not the job of POC to talk about it, it is mine as I am raced too. I wrote this this morning on my FB Page

The construction of the "White Anti-racist" in a "Post-Racial" World is still about white folks looking outside themselves to solve their internal bias's about race. It is a form of White speak (double speak for it is still about us). Racism is not a issue over there or in some other person it is inside us. The work and invitation is to work on ourselves first, not point out the obvious. Healing and change start at home, in our own hearts and minds, then we might have a better chance of dismantling both internal and structural racism. Stay Blessed
I can not separate out race and gender as they are linked in the material world and have consequences good and bad.

Here is a link to my blog where I ask other white folks to engage in conversations about what it means to be white. http://twistedqueer.wordpress.com/

The hardest thing I had to realize is that How others see me matters in how they response to my Body, not my heart, In the world I am seen in almost 80% of my life as White and male, not Butch and masculine. Painful as that truth is. That Truth was not made by me, it is a structural system that I live in queer or not.
Race and gender create for me white male privilege, and as a white masculine queer feminist raised in queer community since I was 18 that is painful to see and accept, not from a place of guilt or shame but from a place of awakening and healing.