The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[ravfem]

Well, since i only shave my legs on Saturdays, does that count as "non-shaved legs"?

Seriously, i've never had to face any sort of bathroom issue personally. my previous relationships have been with masculine butches and a transguy, so i have seen what they go through on a daily basis.

i promise i wasn't trying to tell people how to behave or anything of that sort. i just thought that the guide was very well written, and this particular point stood out.

(and um...i'm kinda glad you don't have *anything* hanging out...i'd have to laugh if ya did!)

Originally Posted by MrSunshine

There are parts of this I really do like. However, have you ever tried walking into a bathroom with hardly any hair/masculine features/non shaved legs if in shorts etc...?
I could have (which I thankfully do not) a big O flappin vagina hangin out and still catch shit. (okay, that didn't sound right) Not just from women but from men who may be waiting outside for their daughters.
The last time this happened an elderly woman gasp and said "you are in the wrong place"! I simply told her "I've been touching this thing for 45 years, I know where I belong" she winked, apologized and kept steppin.
The man was stupid enough to put his hand on me as if to stop me. He may or may not recover that testicle.

[EnderD_503]

I realise there are not many Torontonians around these parts, but thought I'd share the link in case a few happen to trickle in. For those it might be useful for who weren't aware before (just found this myself as a new student there), the University of Toronto has gender neutral washrooms spread out around its various campuses, particularly St. George campus in the downtown core. Here is a compiled list of all the gender neutral washrooms on campus: http://www.sgdo.utoronto.ca/washrooms/Locations.htm

I've noticed a few restaurants/coffee shops in the area like Tim Horton's across from the varsity field has single-user washrooms as well that don't require you get a key from the counter to use.

[Glenn]

I'm designing a house built for 100+ toilets only. One area is gender neutral, and another area has round circles for some folks who want to watch each other.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Nat

My super-Christian conservative Texan-small-town workplace has a new member of it's cleaning staff - who happens to be - (okay, I know it's wrong to assume) - appears to be a butch.

What so totally rocks about this is the fact that there is often a masculine woman in the bathroom when I walk in. Which means the hundreds of women who work in my cubicle-land may have the opportunity to lose their startle response in the butch bathroom encounter. At least that's what I hope.

The bathroom butch is already gone. I asked another member of the cleaning staff and he said he didn't know anything except that she's gone.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I realise there are not many Torontonians around these parts, but thought I'd share the link in case a few happen to trickle in. For those it might be useful for who weren't aware before (just found this myself as a new student there), the University of Toronto has gender neutral washrooms spread out around its various campuses, particularly St. George campus in the downtown core. Here is a compiled list of all the gender neutral washrooms on campus: http://www.sgdo.utoronto.ca/washrooms/Locations.htm

I've noticed a few restaurants/coffee shops in the area like Tim Horton's across from the varsity field has single-user washrooms as well that don't require you get a key from the counter to use.

This site also appears useful -

http://safe2pee.org/

[ComparedToWhom]

Interesting article: URINARY SEGREGATION

Thoughts anyone?

CTW

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by ComparedToWhom

Interesting article: URINARY SEGREGATION

Thoughts anyone?

CTW

Unless they are single user washrooms, I'm not sure a multi-user gender neutral washroom would work, and I would think there are safety concerns which the author didn't address as I would have (the author put it down to the "purity of white femininity," which I really don't undersand, unless the USA really is that different from Canada). The issue of bathrooms at home not being segregated by gender only works if we're talking single user washrooms. I think gender neutral multi user washrooms would only work if we started putting security guards inside public washrooms, personally. Not all users or even most users would commit any wrong against another person, but those who are more inclined to do so will have a much easier time of it.

[MysticOceansFL]

The only thing I can think of is when your in trans as in waiting to go through the operation there should be change of Driver's lic's stating that your male if your FTM and a woman if your MTF because it would be less bother somes for people who are trans why doesnt the system help out? Its not hurting anyone and second some places should have unisex bathrooms just for that reason and not leave anyone out! Just an idea!

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFLr people who are trans why doesnt the system help out? Its not hurting anyone and second some places should have unisex bathrooms just for that reason and not leave anyone out! Just an idea![/COLOR

[/SIZE][/FONT]

My brain has been boiling about this issue. Now .. I have designed the perfect corporate unisex restroom/lounge, whereby folks can retain their dignity. I must say..I've really overdone myself and broken all barriers.. I can tell you this is really fancy with modern tables and chairs doubling as toilets surrounded by high partitions and a security guard.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When I take a shit.

I personally don't want no kinda guy in there.

Queer or not a girl likes to do her shitting
in comfort and private.

That's just me though

[Apocalipstic]

Me, I don't care.

And in my experience men don't care. In fact, men don't really look at each other going to the bathroom, so when I am in a hurry I use the Men's room and I look nothing like a man.

Some Women have a fit though. I soooooo sosososososo want Cynthia to go to the Women's room with me, so I can tell someone off.. I am eat up with excitement over it...but she insists on just using the men's room.

UGH.

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

When I take a shit.

I personally don't want no kinda guy in there.

Queer or not a girl likes to do her shitting
in comfort and private.

That's just me though

i love your candor!

This is why i personally think all bathrooms should be a one stall, one person at a time, locking door room!

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ravfem

i love your candor!

This is why i personally think all bathrooms should be a one stall, one person at a time, locking door room!

I prefer this too!

[EnderD_503]

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

[bright_arrow]

When boi and I are out and about, I go with. I can't say I notice anyone giving hym looks but then again I walk ahead of hym and engage hym in conversation (hy may look masculine but hy doesn't sound it) while we walk in. When we're coming home from Jersey hy's often still in uniform so no one really takes a second look.

I guess the way I see it is there is nothing keeping a man out of the women's restroom if he was determined to come in, not really. I assume when I see someone resembling a female appearance that they have every right to be in the restroom, and frankly, I don't care. As long as you're not trying to share my stall with me, go for it!

[SuperFemme]

i make the person i am married to go to the garage.
so i can use the facilities.

yanno?

somethings i need to do alone.

my utopia are those "family" bathrooms.

one room, door locks, and nobody is listening to how you you pee. or worse....

[bright_arrow]

ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by desdansmoncoeur

ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now

don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?

I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.

They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.

it's a big issue.

[bright_arrow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?

I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.

They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.

it's a big issue.

When you put it that way, you have a point, I just didn't want to derail or offend being in the 'wrong' thread as my partner is butch-id'd, that's all.

~ desd, aka soothesayer/peacekeeper