Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Just peeking in...

I can answer one teeny piece of this. Olivia does allow straight cis women on the cruise. A strongly feminist (and celibate by choice) friend goes on these cruises because she prefers the time outside of the company of men.

It looks like from what Dylan found out via calling Olivia, that all cruises are open to any gender. I do know that they used to have special family cruises open to all. So, maybe their TOS have changed?

Never have gone on one of these, have thought about it, but, I don't know how I would deal with possibly being in a situation in which both B-F and transphobia might be more than just a little present. Humm... but I guess I am being stereotypic, here. Ugh... have to think about this.

Weird, I make no bones about my feminist lesbian identity, but have to say that I too, have had negative experience with some (not all) lesbian geared activities. LOL... I have a lesbian couple that lives across the street from me that stopped talking to me after they saw me in a tux a couple of years ago going to the Oakland B-F Bash!!

Also, prior to knowing them as they really are, a close FtM friend (actually the co-parent to my late partner's daughter) was visiting and they happened to be over. He is very open about his transitioning and these women were total assholes to him. He can take on gender-ignorance just fine, but I felt awful.

So, I know if I did go on a cruise and was in the midst of this kind of bigotry, it would not be good! The idea of spending all that cash for a leisure vacation and being in a space in which this went on, just doesn't sound good!

It isn't really about women's space with me, it's about discrimination and bigotry which unfortunately, goes both ways. Sucks!

Argh... when is this all going to stop with the entire LGBTIQ community?Every year during Pride, I honestly go through a roller-coaster of emotions.

[TenderKnight]

Well, after reading some of the posts on here, I am feeling kinda mixed, to be honest.. It's amazing how many triggers can go off while reading a thread! lol

In any case, here are some of my thoughts..

RE: Butch/trans morals and ethics when it comes to dating a friend's ex.. I take it as it comes.. If I am good friends with both, I can usually tell if it's a healthy break up that just needs time for both partners to heal, or if it is unhealthy and full of destructive behavior and hurt feelings.. In the first case, if I'm attracted to one of the partners, I will let them know, in a comfortable way, that I am interested and that I would like to date them, but I want to allow them time to heal.. Then it is up to them and we can go from there. Is it my responcibility to ask permission from the other ex partner? No.. The relationship is over. *shrugs*

In the second case, I leave it be.. It isn't healthy and I don't want to be a rebound or a way to get back at an ex.. I have been both and it hurts.

RE: Women's only space.. We got the cruise thing settled out, but when I first saw the Oblivia post by Strappie, I was thinking, "Oh god! Being stuck on a boat with a bunch of people that don't want me there? Having those "conversations" with people that don't get or don't WANT to get why I am transgender? No thanks.." It is also about giving women, (god yes, I'm using women.. female only?), females a place to feel safe and comfortable with themselves and who surround them. I *don't* belong. I will never belong in female only space. I have made my "choice" and if I expect to be respected, then I will do the same..

On a side note.. FUCKING AWESOME COMMUNICATION going on in this thread.. At Last, thank you so very much for talking TO me and not just to my post. I felt that. Thank you.

I may have more later.. Thank you all for posting and for being real.

-Tony, Asshat (not really, but it made me laugh..)

[Kosmo]

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work and I can't login from there.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

These are some random and not so random thoughts while I sit here at work and multi-task.

I have noticed that we do come to each others aid when there is a misconception or stereotype, but that it sometimes escalates into a gender war and that’s frustrating to see. Then femmes get involved and sometimes I wish they wouldn’t. I have been guilty of trying to speak for others when I shouldn’t have… just once (I think?). It’s not like I don’t appreciate the effort, but then those voices I want to hear from are drowned out in a way. Then the flirting and adoration exchanges start and I get annoyed. I would like to see more of us coming in to talk about what we can do to help each other. Between us and only us.

Are we less likely to find camaraderie because we’re so used to going it alone? You know the stereotypical gender aspects we’re ALL supposed to innately have that make up the brooding, loner, tough exterior, ‘I don’t need help or support’. I know we’re much more than that. It’s as if the chasm between butch/transman and femme is built just to feel/fit a need for the other and I think it limits our view of the common ground we do share.

To AtLastHome,
I think you were actually quoting me, but have DapperButch as the originator of this quote:

‘Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes? Just throwing some stuff out there....’

So I’m going to respond to you. I don’t think you digress at all. I can’t imagine the difficulty or internal strife that transmen may have with sensing or knowing that someone is interested out of curiosity. I can only say it might be similar to someone who is interested in a butch out of curiosity.

I’ve never succumbed to the interests of someone like that. When I think about it, I know it would make me feel stripped of self. I would feel like an oddity and lose my attraction immediately.

On other thoughts, I’ve read about transmen getting gigged for not being somehow loyal to the cause or traitors when they feel they must leave the community. I find this contradictory when I think they have gotten back a lot less/if any loyalty for their cause. It wouldn't bother me personally if a transman or anyone wanted to leave the community to live their lives. See, I’m not that involved in the community, I don’t get involved in queer political issues, but doesn’t make me unloyal or unable to post my thoughts/opinions on such issues. Would it affect me if I had a transman as a friend, let’s say a friend before and during transition who needed to leave the community and alter or limit their interaction with me? Yes. It’s hard for me to say goodbye. I’m a sentimental person and I would miss them a lot. Could I try to be closeted for them in interactions to not inadvertently sell them out? No. It would be impossible for me to be something I am not. Just like it would be impossible for them. We’ve all worked through enough shit to get where we are today.

These thoughts may or may not resonate with anyone, but I find that if I don’t sometimes blurt stuff out that I’m pondering, I’ll never add to the conversation. Also, it takes me freakin’ forever to assemble that blurt into something coherent and then by the time I do post my thoughts, the conversation is 15 pages down the road!

I’ve had other thoughts, but I keep getting interrupted at work and I can't login from there.

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I apologize for my goof up!

You touch on some really key issues here, thanks! Will be interesting to see what responses come along.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

No problem, ALH. Just wanted to make it clear. On the other hand, if I say something really stupid in the future, I might not want to clear it up, lol.

And I didn't even notice even though I read AtLast's post! lol