Lack of understanding of genderqueer

[imperfect_cupcake]

Hey all.
I decided to take a stroll round the net and just what is out there in terms of dyke message boards. A lot of them do include trans* so that was encouraging. But what shocked me was that there seemed to be a female or male understanding of "gender" (which is *sex*, not gender) and so there were many who were posting that they were thinking of transitioning to make because they don't feel "like a girl" (gender) and didn't want girl-girl (again, gender) relationships but they were having difficulty seeing themselves as completely male (sex, not gender).

Well, fuck me, of course not. There are oodles of genders out there and being
Genderqueer, butch, a boy minded a-gender or a transmasculine genders(rather than man or male)... I was deeply shocked that so many people think the only option is girl/woman or man. That's it. And if not one, then you are the other.

I was pleased to see just how welcome trans* were and people talking about trans* but the entire middle ground was missing. It seems like people in the dyke world don't know there is an option. Which deeply shocks me. I am so used to seeing people grasping the concept in the communities I'm in that I am actually disturbed and distressed people sincerely don't know a) the difference between gender and sex - although I see happen even on this board and b) aren't aware there are more than two choices.

Though having said that, a large proportion of my partners have been "tomboy lesbians" who just didn't understand that there was a place of acceptance of their internal sense of self until they met me. Most of my partners did not ID as butch or understand the concept of genderqueer (where your gender is not a societal expectation of your sex, being female bodied) until I hung out with them, talked, had sex with them etc. When they finally fully connected with the words and ability to connect with it and not stuff it. Where they could figure out just where they were - I got asked a lot what gender I thought they might be. I shrug and say "Jacki gender." Or whatever their name is.

I show them different comics written by genderqueer types and blogs etc. For them to read if they connect with it or not, usually they do.

And those folks have all been 35 years old and older.

But the ones on the boards were very much younger. It shocked me. The youth where I have lived, in the various cities, have all been ahead of the older crowd in accepting gender fluidity, genderqueer and transgender/transmasculine. It has made me wish, at times, I was 10 years younger so dating would be soooooo much easier.

But I was shocked when I read these various boards.

I'm guessing there are a lot of places in the states where the binary is still the only thing understood in the dyke communities? And no one even knows there is actually another way to see ones self? Is this true? I have only lived in Seattle and New York and there was oodles of understanding even 15 years ago in those two cities.at least in the communities I knew.

But is this the case where you live? Lack of understanding of genderqueers or gender fluid? Of boy minded a-gender or transmasculine genders? Not just woman or man?

[Femmadian]

Okay, I'll bite.

The area where I live is a fairly blue-collar region (historically and currently) and so I think that has a big effect on the community here. Here genderqueer seems a term almost exclusively reserved for the young 20-somethings who are either university-educated or heavily involved in queer activism. Andro or "I don't need a label - I'm just me" seem to be the two most common descriptors by people you might otherwise pick out of a lineup as being "butch" (or genderqueer, whichever).

I went to a wedding this summer for a couple who for all intents and purposes would fit in quite well on the Planet but for whatever reason, react like you just hit on their grandma or something when you even mention the B word or the F word around them. However, looking around at the other guests in attendance that day, the whole place was like:

Lots of butchy/gq energy bouncing around in that place, but to the best of my knowledge, not one of them ID'd that way.

When I lived in rural New England, butch was fairly widely understood and adopted as a term of somewhat self-deprecating endearment, kind of like dyke is for some (ie - "My name's Molly and I'm your friendly neighbourhood butch dyke" said with a smirk and a twinkle). I don't think I'd ever heard any of my friends from that region mention the term genderqueer until the last year or so. Friends who still live there have mentioned that they've noticed that quite a few of the younger queers coming up through the community are starting to transition really young (like 18, 19) but this is all anecdotal second hand information. If that's an option that's now open to them because of greater awareness and acceptance, then great. I just wonder if in that particular community it seems to have taken the place of butch or genderqueer as an option instead.

Like you, it drives me batty when people conflate gender with sex but I can understand why that happens. So much of the language and public awareness is so new and always evolving so it can be hard for the average person to keep up unless their lives are completely enmeshed within the queer community (and even then, there are still slip ups).

Interestingly, my experience with people jumping to the conclusion that a gender non-conforming person must be trans has been by and large with straight people! I can't count how many straight people and straight family members have pointed out a particularly butchy/genderqueer/masculine-presenting woman (or a femme-y/genderqueer/feminine-acting man) and either somewhat covertly asked me (usually in a weirdly hushed whisper, like it's a big secret) if they were "really just born in the wrong body" or, if I know them, if/when they're going to come out, transition, and "just be themselves" (as though they're not and transition is an inevitability). I know they mean well, but damn.

I have a friend who told me once that she thought her teenage son might be trans. She was very supportive of the idea and seemed more interested in resources she could go to for more info, so I dutifully introduced her to our local PFLAG chapter and got her in touch with a few prominent individuals within our local community. When I had asked her why she thought he might be trans, though, she said that "he had always been a very nurturing child," that he was "even a better cook than his ol' mum," and that he was the resident hair stylist for his four sisters. She added in an anecdote about how he loved dressing up along with his sisters in her clothes when they were kids and said, wide-eyed, "I mean, that's what the trans kids do, right?" What a pickle... So while I greatly admired her efforts at acceptance of her son and she was trying really, really hard to be a good mum and a good ally to him, whichever ID he may end up choosing (if he chooses at all), I couldn't help but feel a little concerned for him that he might feel pressured into identifying as something he might not be or forced to choose one of two boxes. It's just one example but I feel like especially in the last ten years or so, the boundaries of what's acceptable for either sex are more policed and rigid than they were just not too long ago. I wish there was more room for him, both within the community and in the straight world at large, to be something other than a traditional example of the sex he was born as without being shuffled into the other corner.

I also pointedly avoided sending his mum to any online resources because so much of what I've seen online has been fairly similar to the board you mentioned and I didn't want to lead her (or him) in either direction. A lot of what I've seen online in other spaces feels like an echo chamber (Tumblr sometimes makes me want to poke my eyes out). It can be hard to hear the nuance and the richness of these topics in that kind of environment. Especially on forums, you have what feels like so many young, scared teenagers and uni students trying desperately to figure out where they fit in and asking "am I normal? Am I okay?" over and over again until someone gently (or not-so-gently) points them in any particular direction. I think it's only natural to grab onto what for many must feel like a life-preserver and hold onto it for dear life, but it doesn't leave much room for other people in the process. I really wish there was a greater diversity of voices for young people on this topic, both online and in the uni activist circles I've seen.

I also recognize that that's a bit of an emotional land mine of a topic and very delicate to address! Hopefully others will chime in with their experiences too! Great topic!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess that's why I was wondering... I don't live in rural places. But in large, or mega huge urban centres, and the communities are very mixed working class, middle class, trades, uni etc. I am unable to function in rural or small town areas so I have no idea what goes on in them and was wondering if perhaps this might be who is sending out distress signals on the boards I visited.

[imperfect_cupcake]

As for gender and sex being confused I blame forms for that partially. They *used* to say "sex" male or female. But I'm guessing some prude thought the term sex was offensive instead of accurate and over about a decade I started seeing "gender" male or female (wrong!!! And very, very irritating, especially in a doctors office, who should know better).

We were taught in *high school* (at least in vancouver) the difference between gender and sex, so it's not new. It's been confused through - but I do know that when I went back to school to anthropology class and that was one of the first classes, everyone already knew the difference. And last year when I started massage school, that was one of the first classes in teaching anatomy - terms. And gender vs sex was one of the things to know. Nobody in my class had been to Uni save me, and aside from one 18 year old, they all knew the difference before anything was said... I think it's part of basic year 11 biology class to talk about the difference between sex and gender.

So I'm wondering how it gets confused so badly? Is it media?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Though, I have to say, in massage school, when we started using communication text books, they came from the states, and quite shockingly *everything* in them was gendered. In really offensive ways. The class was in an uproar about it and quite pissed off. None of us wanted to use the text books because it did things like call some cultures "feminine" and some cultures "masculine" based on cultural traits. The more socialist countries were "feminine" and the more "independant" cultures were "masculine"

That was done with pretty much everything in the text books for that class. The teacher apologised profusely and said he would not use them if they weren't on the list by the board. He suggested we write. So we did as a class.

But if that's any indication of how things are being taught these days in the states? Sheesh. No wonder.

[Nadeest]

In the Houston trans community, as far as I saw, there was widespread acceptance of genderqueer folk.

[Butcher]

When I was about 14 I first read the word genderqueer on a website after searching a number of phrases like "what does it mean if I feel like a boy and a girl?" etc. It was an identity I stuck with all through my teen years and therefore I respect it and understand its importance. I will say that I personally outgrew it. Many people my age (early 20s) who identify along the lines of genderqueer lean more toward androgyny. I'm not androgynous, I'm masculine to my core. My gender isn't something to play with though it once was and genderqueer has a lot of playfulness and creativity toward gender expression. I admire that but as stated I outgrew it. A friend of mine put the difference into words that make sense for me:
"Genderqueer or boi is more like your college years. Butch is like being the dad of the house." I just grew into a more solid masculinity and butch made more sense.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I understand your take on the word. However, I know people locally who ID as genderqueer in their 40s who used to ID as butch and now see themselves as although likely seen as Butch and "masculine to the core" - but because they occupy what they see as a separate gender - not woman, not man, but their own masculine gender of their own making, with their own rules, and none of the "baggage" (aka rules) of "Butch"... They see it as a " grown up" version of their own gender. I also know people in their late 40s that ID as boi. And those are dominants in the BDSM community. They personally see it as having more "room" for themselves than butch does (as they see the term).
I think its very individual, rather than a gender of immaturity.

[Kelt]

I agree, I think a lot of these labels are what the individual makes of them. When I was 14 the word 'genderqueer' didn't exist. If there was a middle of the road, 'dip your toe in the pond' phrase it was Bi as a graduating step to Gay (To be clear that was a sign of the times in the 70's, it is now a clear distinct identity) or Lesbian. Gender discussion wasn't happening per se. I was claiming Butch by the time I was 17 and had gotten a OS mentor a decade my senior to teach me the ropes. It was a bit different then, everything was.

As an individual I am also TG although I find that term to be lacking as well. While masculine to the core I have been treated by society as at least partly female for 50 years. That leaves it's mark on the psyche. My stature is such, (short with smallish hands), that I rarely pass for more than a few minutes. In the minds of others something doesn't add up and I get a second hard going over. In the eye of society I barely register at all any more, that's an age thing, maybe as an oddity or a bit of a freak. I have been judged by appearance over merit for a lifetime. That just is what it is. I am so glad times are different now for those like you Butcher, that are coming up in new times.

But those are external markers, the terms we use for ourselves to ourselves carry the real weight. I spent a lot of years just saying "I don't need labels, I'm beyond definition" what a load of bullocks, I was afraid to look in the mirror for anything more than posturing. I think genderqueer and butch can easily go together or separate depending on the individual. People who grow, will grow in and out of terms and labels for their whole life, nobody has to say 'this' is the only thing they are. Label X may be right for a decade or three and then something else will fit best.

For me for now Genderqueer Butch fits pretty well, I'll let you know when I grow up some more.

Since age is part of the discussion right now, I'm 53 and have always included Butch in any set of identifiers.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Thanks kelt for the reasons you use it. I'd like to hear more about those who do and why.

It took too many years to come across genderqueer as an identity. The moment I heard/read it I knew it fit me to a tee.

Heavily socialised as female in my birth family I had proclaimed long and loudly that I wasn't like everyone else and that I felt myself to be neither male nor female but a third gender.

I didn't come out until I was 26yrs old [25yrs ago this month] and a major personal puzzle piece was put in place and felt 'right'.

From thereon I found myself on the androgene spectrum. Butch never felt right for me. I'm more Beau Brummel than Mike the Mechanic [yes I know butch comes in all flavours in reality]; Infact, I'm a wee 'glitter poof'

I came across genderqueer as id/label on what was the main UK BF website at the time. Age 39 and half I discovered my gender label, the one that I could happily accept and inhabit. It too put another large piece of my personal puzzle into place.

I love my self chosen labels and have never eschewed their use. I am empowered by my labels which have helped me explain and claim who I am for myself chiefly and by happenstance have helped indicate to others who/what I identify as. A few of those labels are community specific and don't make much sense to those not part of those communities though.
In my experience explaining genderqueer to mainstream lesbians (and every other group bar kinsters) is nigh on impossible. I know this because I've tried on many, many occasions with many, many non-BF 'gay' folks. But then try explaining Daddy to non-kink folks too.

Currently my life is mainly populated by hetero folk. It has created much consternation for me in their lack of acceptance of difference, of anything they've not come across before, of their refusal to think of gender as anything other than binary but I am powerless over people, places and things and therefore cannot make others see me as I see myself. I can only lead by non-judgemental, accepting example.

In summary, I have found over the years, a distinct lack of understanding around genderqueer, except in our very small b/f/t microcosm.

[Butcher]

Thank you guys for your input. Its good to know that genderqueer has become used by many varying kinds of people and age groups. I consider that a beautiful thing.

[JDeere]

Honestly I still don't get it, I have heard of the term but still don't understand. Can you give a definition in dummy terms, for me please?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Some people use it meaning they don't feel like a woman, nor a man but their own gender, and use it in that sense. Some of my partners have had a masculine gender that was not a "man" but just their own making, so they called themselves genderqueer - since the gender had no name as it was individual, they prefered calling themselves genderqueer.

Some people use it because they feel they have more than one gender. My exwife felt like she was a woman (gender) and a butch (gender) and those two genders shifted back and forth with each other like a lava lamp. She called herself gender fluid/genderqueer

Some people shift back and forth between woman and man, like my friend David-Jane. S/he does not wish to physically change hir sex from male to female, but hir two genders share the same body and depending on the day of the week s/he is David or Jane. S/he calls hirself genderqueer.

There are other uses for it. But those are three that I personally am most familiar with.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Some people use it meaning they don't feel like a woman, nor a man but their own gender, and use it in that sense. Some of my partners have had a masculine gender that was not a "man" but just their own making, so they called themselves genderqueer - since the gender had no name as it was individual, they prefered calling themselves genderqueer.

Some people use it because they feel they have more than one gender. My exwife felt like she was a woman (gender) and a butch (gender) and those two genders shifted back and forth with each other like a lava lamp. She called herself gender fluid/genderqueer

Some people shift back and forth between woman and man, like my friend David-Jane. S/he does not wish to physically change hir sex from male to female, but hir two genders share the same body and depending on the day of the week s/he is David or Jane. S/he calls hirself genderqueer.

There are other uses for it. But those are three that I personally am most familiar with.

Thank you, it's a relative new term for me to hear.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

Some people use it meaning they don't feel like a woman, nor a man but their own gender, and use it in that sense. Some of my partners have had a masculine gender that was not a "man" but just their own making, so they called themselves genderqueer - since the gender had no name as it was individual, they prefered calling themselves genderqueer.

Some people use it because they feel they have more than one gender. My exwife felt like she was a woman (gender) and a butch (gender) and those two genders shifted back and forth with each other like a lava lamp. She called herself gender fluid/genderqueer

Some people shift back and forth between woman and man, like my friend David-Jane. S/he does not wish to physically change hir sex from male to
female, but hir two genders share the same body and depending on the day of the week s/he is David or Jane. S/he calls hirself genderqueer.

There are other uses for it. But those are three that I personally am most familiar with.

What a great explaination!

Very clear and well thought out...easy for even me to understand.

There are as many definitions of genderqueer as there are genderqueer folks. As it is with femme, butch, trans..., et al.

If you really want to know about genderqueer ask a self identifed genderqueer person.

I'm not suggesting that you're trying to answer for all genderqueer people MsCupcake, I know youu better than that, but addressing folks in general.

[imperfect_cupcake]

No of course not. And I know it's used in many ways. That's also why I'd like to encourage those who do ID as genderqueer to explain how they use it.

I also know it's used as an umbrella term - for example there have been dyke, butch, femme, bear, transgender, Transexual, a-gendered, boi, and unnamed gender at bar nights at various times in London and those places, as a general term have been referred to as "genderqueer clubs"

Genderqueer just generally means outside the realm of single gendered woman or single gendered man.

I also know one gal who is a femme gender with masculine pronouns and IDs as a femme daddy. She calls herself genderqueer. It's pretty much anything out of a recognised binary.

But I'd love to hear more from those who do use it, and why.

Originally Posted by imperfect_cupcake

*Snippety-snip*
...But I'd love to hear more from those who do use it and why.

I've only inhabited the genderqueer id for 12yrs so I'm still a baby!

I know more than one femme who ids as genderqueer femme. One in particular I'm thinking of who, goes by a chaps name all the time and challenges folks on so many fronts as well as gender presentation, pronouns and nomenclature.
I also know a handful of hetero blokes from the kink community who also own genderqueer as id for their own non-binary reasons

For me it means exactly what it says on the tin. My gender is rather queer, not the norm, outside the the box...and therefore a challenge to those who can only view the world in black&white.

The majority of genderqueer folks I know are female-bodied, on the masculine end of the spectrum and have come to genderqueer after many years of not fitting into the usual rather limited identity boxes provided by the hetero and homo communities.

Genderqueer and proud!

[imperfect_cupcake]

I can't edit, but pardon my mis type of my mate's pronoun. Even I screw up at times.