only another butch would understand

[BullDog]

Medusa, your post is very powerful and speaks very clearly to how all of this has played out over the years. Thank you so much for your post.

What I said yesterday was that having male identified people in a primarily female queer space introduces power dynamics, hierarchies, privileges, etc that would not be there- in the same way- if male identified people were not there, just as white people being in a group of people is different than if it was a community that was made up of all people of color. Does that mean I think that male identified people shouldn't be here? No, it does not. Does it mean I think male identified people are to blame entirely for the hierarchies, the erasure, the misogyny that has taken place. No, I do not. We have all played a role in it.

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

really???????????

sorry.......ain't buying or drinking that koolaid.........

Toughy, I apologize. I should have been more clear:

I believe the automatic he, hy/she-ing has more often been the fault/responsibility of the butches who actually identified as female and their partners who participated in and/or allowed this to go on without speaking up. See, I do not and will not ever believe that the number of transmasculine folks compares. It can't have been that they were enforcing this behavior via the terrible power of misogyny. And like Medusa, I have been guilty of doing it myself - in a relationship where it went on for some time until we both looked at each other and asked, "Why?" Even she didn't know. It seemed the thing to do, and harmless enough. (It wasn't.)

I have witnessed both you and Bulldog fight for your own recognition, however, and I was always and still am glad for this.

What I argue here is what seems like a false dichotomy. I disagree that we can compare queer people or born-female-bodied ones who inhabit male space/identity as the Oppressor. As He Who Must Examine His Misogynist Tendencies More Than Us. It sets him apart. And I believe that 'setting apart' is the rub. Most transpeople, to my mind, are not receiving privilege.

Not in this space, and not in any other.

I disbelieve even an online space allows for it.

I call the notion that they are misandry. Transphobia, possibly. I don't know. But it feels...wrong.

We have all had these discussions before. I want every woman here - butch or no - to be recognized. I have always felt this way. But I also do not want to see an 'othering' take place where transfolk are somehow shouldering the responsibility of the misogyny that was born of a patriarchy that does not even allow for their existence.

[Darth Denkay]

This is great news. When I was new on another site I got the impression that male pronouns were the default for butches, and because I am masculine-identified that suited me just fine. It wasn't until years later that I realized that was not okay with some people. It has been difficult to know how to refer to folks, and having this specified I hope will have a significant impact on valuing all butches.

In reading over this thread, one thing jumped out at me. I don't know how prevalent this is, but I actually do not identify as female or male. Now, biologically I am female (sex) but when female and male are used to define gender I don't use either. I see it as once again falling into a binary. I identify as masculine, I have masculine energy, but I am not male. A butch friend once described himself as FTNF - female to not female - which really resonates with me. The act of not identifying as female (gender) but not identifying as male either.

Binaries suck, because they seldom, if ever, work.

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

[Toughy]

D U S A ! ! !

I love you baby...........thank you so much for speaking up....that was hard to do and I, for one, really appreciate that you did..........the role of femmes in the male pronoun default has always been on my mind.....

----------

e

I will have to come back to you. I am recovering from pneumonia and still have huge amounts of drugs in my system and my brain can hardly put a paragraph together....

oh yeah.....I think I disagree with you..........even after you further explained....

and thank you for the apology.....

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip>
I think that all of us who identify in some way as masculine need to examine masculinity. I also think that those that identify as male or men have a responsibility of realizing just how pervasive male violence is, how damaging misogyny is, how male is overwhelmingly valued over female both in society in general as well as queer culture. You need to realize that when you are in a butch femme community you are in a primarily female queer space and having male identified people in it changes things. You have a responsibility to recognize that. Just like me being a white person- when I am in the presence of people of color the space is whiter than it would be without me and I have white privilege. You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are. I am not saying anyone participating in this thread is doing this- it's the general you I am talking about.

When I first read this post, I wanted to rep you, BullDog, for drawing attention to the importance for all masculine peoples (I'm sticking with the general here) to examine masculinity and how we wear/utilize it. I have spent a number of years consciously examining my masculinity in an effort to better understand the creature that I am, and so that I might more fluidly navigate a world that does not understand me without feeling perpetually ill at ease and misunderstood.

Then I got to this last paragraph. To put it bluntly, I felt a door closing. The door not solely to this thread, but to this site. Now, I know you weren't addressing me in particular and that I should know better than to take your statements personally. But I did. Your statement felt exclusionary. Your statement said, “In this female queer space, you are a tolerated outsider.” (There is a fundamental fallacy in the term “female queer space” in that this is not identified as “female queer space,” but I think that’s already been addressed.) What it feels like is that we (male identified) should have to justify our presence here. I resent feeling like I need to reveal parts of my history in order to be validated; like I should pull down my pants and show you my bits so we can see how “alike” we all are. I struggle constantly with trying to reconcile my life – my history, accomplishments, journies – with where I am today. I believed this was one place – and this is relevant to the thread title – where butches would understand; where I could be accepted as just butch.

What a lot of this feels like to me - this unwarranted saddling of male-id’ed butches with male privilege – is to place us in the position of oppressor.

Really?

Not so much. Because while I don’t disagree that there are circumstances in which female identified butches might feel invisible or have to fight to be seen as who they are, maybe we need to examine who is responsible for that, because, to quote Johnny Cash, it ain’t me, babe.

See, I just see butch. I don’t subscribe to hierarchal thinking, it’s rubbish, and anyone who does subscribe to it needs some serious educating. Not lines drawn, not us/them speak, not victim/oppressor posturing.

Last night, I wanted to ask to whom you addressed the following, “You can't just be here to get fluffed up and be told how manly you are.” Personally, I’m hoping you are fair minded enough to recognize that is a statement that applies equally to butches of all flavors, it is hardly unique to male-id’ed butches.

And then I thought, well, here goes another "butch (inclusive) thread turning into a gender identity war." That hadn't happened here yet. Now, I'm not blaming you for that simply because you were the first person to feel it necessary to draw some sort of line distinguishing "types" of butch. I suppose those of us who take issue with your post could simply have remained silent; just taken our invisibility and sat there quietly with it.

Originally Posted by BullDog

<snip> Having male identified people in a community introduces male privilege on many different levels. It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large, it is the effect that is has within a community itself as well. Things are different because there are male identified people within butch femme communities.

This feels incredibly dismissive to me:

"It isn't just about what privilege people may or may not receive out in the world at large..."

It's dismissive of male-identified/trans butches who have not one whiff of male privilege out in the world at large, and worse, it's dismissive of the shared experience of ALL butches. This thread, which got off to a rocky start, and may have been ill-conceived to begin with, was about what we relate to among ourselves - as butches. No modifiers necessary.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Let me just give a personal narrative here:

(while recognizing that my Femme voice might be intrusive on this conversation)


I just want to say that I *do* resonate with parts of what e said. While I dont want to go into the whole "who did it more to whom" thing, I DO want to recognize that I , as a Femme, have INDEED not been as intentionally watchful as I should have been around my *own* involvment with marginalizing women-identified Butches.

A good example:

When I first logged on to the "other" site, I had NEVER heard anothe Butch referred to as a "he" or a "hye" or a "sir" on any level (outside of the "oh, Im sorry I thought you were a man" conversations when someone would mistake the woman I was dating for a man)
I had mostly been around other Butches in clubs, at rallies, or had long time lesbo friends. We all referred to each other as "she".

When I came to the "other" site, I noticed immediately that there were Butches who wanted to be referred to as "he, hye, sir", etc. At the time, it felt new and wonderful, a way for me as a Femme to show HONOR and RESPECT to that part of my Butch heros who exuded a way of being that words would not describe. But it felt good, it feel like fucking every established context that I had ever known. It felt empowering as a Femme because it felt like I was finally able to show just how much I "got it".

Fast forward a month or two and I met Jack. Jack insisted from the very beginning, "Im a woman, don't call me he." I respected that. (because honestly? STILL hot.)

So now fast forward about 8 years and Jack and I are now partnered and we realize one day after some bullshit on the other site that I have now defaulted to calling my parter a "he" when discussing her in conversations with other BF people. That Jack has stopped twitching when referred to as "he" by random folks online. That the whole thing just kinda felt normal.
There was no feeling of "oh god we slid into hell" by taking up the "he", it just happened because I stopped correcting people, Jack stopped correcting people, and I think in some way, I let my fetishization of the masculine take over. Im not at ALL saying that this is what this means for everyone, but I think it might have been a tiny part of it for me. I own that with 100% responsibility.

After a bit, Jack and I both made a conscious choice to have a discussion about how she identifies and wants to be honored. When she said to me, "I am a woman. I am a she. I am a Butch Woman", that was enough for me to do a 180 on my laziness (personal experience) around gender pronouns.
I have worked steadily and thoughtfully to NEVER refer to my partner as a "he" again because its how SHE wants to be seen.
This doesnt mean that I dont honor those folks who identify as masculine, I certainly do! I honor them and respect their path just as much.

My own culpability in the erasure of not just female-identified Butches, but ....for fuck's sake...MY PARTNER...to some degree, speaks to my own...I struggle for words here....my own idealization of gender.
My own immersion in the binary.
My own static electricity with what makes ME most comfortable.

Maybe it was just easier for me as a Femme on a site where the overwhelming majority of folks identified as "he" to talk about my partner. Maybe it felt more inclusive. Maybe it felt less "abnormal".

The only thing I know is that I wanted to reverse my process because my partner's right to exist, not just in her body, but as a loved being with FULL understanding and honor from me, as the person who loves her, is WAY more important than me feeling comfortable in a cyberworld.

This is all bockety and jangly but I hope people can see that I am owning my own small part in the erasure. I know that this issue isnt "all about me" but I want to be clear that I do NOT think it would be healthy of us as a community to create yet another binary where the masculine-identified folks or Transmen are 100% responsible for the erasure of female-identified Butches.
I do think that there is work to be done around the inherent hierarchies that are created but I think we can all work together to do that work.

With grace. With respect. With honor.

Medusa thank you, I truly appreciate what you've expressed in your post... and what you obviously heard... again much appreciation.

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch woman, often referenced and mistaken for male in 3d space (not to mention online), your post truly resonates for me. Butches like me really needed to see so much of what you've said acknowledged, and I can't state enough how much your words are appreciated.

I've been out for 30 years, and only online has this been an issue for me -- not because people don't refer to me as "he" in the real world, but because within my own butch-femme community I never thought I'd have to fight to be seen for who I am. I'm tired of this conversation, and yet I know it needs to take place if only to help butches who are still coming out realize that it's okay to retain a female identity without having their "butchness" questioned, scrutinized, or devalued. (If that identity is what is true for them.) And in no way does that (or should that) discount those who male-ID; it just doesn't allow that to be the default. Do I believe it's a product of internalized homophobia and/or misogyny? Yes, most likely in many cases; however, generally I believe it is more a result of habit. Habits can be broken and should be if they're detrimental. This nasty habit has erased many and created an aritificial, bullshit hierarchy that is detrimental to our cohesion as a community online.

I'm swamped with work presently and should not even be on here reading, let alone posting, but I just had to publicly express my gratitude for your ownership of your actions and your perspective on how this can be addressed.

in admiration and respect,
Beau, who'd really prefer to be "just butch"

Beau, thanks I totally hear you and get this. I had a whole post in response/concurrence but really you said it quite well already.

I don't know how deep I'll be in these particular conversations, I'm kind of getting into "just being" these days w/o having to explain it at every turn... and a bit tired too. That said I do still feel invested in these particular issues, so we'll see.

Peace,
Metro

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent I read your post and wouldn't really even know where to begin. You certainly don't appear to understand at all what I am talking about.

Best wishes to you- sincerely meant.

I think I do understand what you're talking about.

I think it's unfortunate that you don't want to take ownership for the power of what you said, perhaps because you can't understand that your statements were as exclusionary as those of which you accuse others? I won't presume to understand your reasons.

You have, however, again been dismissive.

This method of non-discourse and discounting another's ability to understand is a further means by which to exclude.

[PapaC]

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Admin

Just to be clear:

This space is supportive of female-identified Butches, masculine-identified Butches, Male-identified Butches, Trans Men, Trans Women, Genderqueers, Femmes, and everyone else who falls somewhere along the gender spectrum.

I know that we can incorporate our spaces peacefully and respectfully.

One of the ways that BFP is going to work to help folks feel more visible is to make sure that the "how do you identify" section our our profiles will also include a "preferred pronouns" portion that will be displayed with the users name here in the posts.
Until then, we should all be *asking* one another for the correct pronoun for that person without assuming that it is "he", "she", "hye", "ze" based on how we identify ourselves.

Just a general reminder to word our posts carefully that this place retains a welcoming feel to everyone.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

Yep, it's very powerful. I am going to try to watch it again tomorrow.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by PapaC

I took time to watch the video today... love google video! Luckily so does my brother, so I passed along "tough guise" for his evaluation as well.

Briefly?

it's fucking powerful. A very well done documentary, and hats off to the maker of it. I posted it on facebook as well. It's in my mind, a "must see" for all genders, even if the focus is on cisgendered boys and men.

If I was a cocky sob (which I'm not - honest!) I'd make every single questioning, pre-everything trans-masculine identified person watch that video and fuckin' learn something.

Peace!
-PapaC

Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Tommi

Nodding to the BG WicketWWarrick

and to Metro, who likes what he sees..


So, Butch's let's see in ten words or less.

1. What age were you when you first said "I'm butch" ?

2. To whom, yourself included?

Originally Posted by Gryph

I was called a butch in junior high school, I didn't acknowledge it in myself until I was in my early 30's. After I had left an abusive marriage(yes to a bio-male) of 11years.
I still wasn't fully comfortable with being quite as male ID as I am even after my Two-Spirit vision, as I have been since my girl came into my life. She is the one who has brought out the male that I was hiding for so many years.

Yes, Gryph girl's will do that to you.

When I was in grade school , my dad would tease me and tell my friends I was queer... One day my uncle said..."Tommi is butch, get used to it". So, at 13 I told my 14 year old girlfriend I was Butch. She smiled and said, oh, good your not queer...and , it has been fun ever since..

[sharkchomp]

Originally Posted by BullDog

However, I believe that male identified people have a responsibility to recognize that their presence does make an impact and it absolutely has to do with how male is valued over female- in society and in queer communities. The fact that transmen have their own struggles does not lessen this fact. I believe transphobia stems from misogyny as well.

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am not a carrier of male privilege, but I'd love to hear from others if they feel it is somethings butches/trans people incur.


The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. I have never even been considered for a prestigious job. I have only worked at places where I was at the bottom wrung of the ladder.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. More like in spite of my sex and gender appearing to not fit together, by cis/het standards. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. It's because my sex and gender don't correspond.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities. Hah, that's funny.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. Actually, I have been mocked and whispered about, made fun of no matter which bathroom I used, etc. by my coworkers. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job. NOT. I was expected to fail, and when I didn't do everything perfectly the first time, I was mocked for not being "tough" enough.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. I HAVE been raped. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are. I have been followed home by a group of teenage boys laughing and making rude comments to me.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question. No, but I am not given my due as my daughter's parent because my ex-wife gave birth to her, not me.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question. Not sure, my ex-wife has only allowed me to have a peripheral role in Jessica's life after we split up.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. Again, never had this chance. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Never had that one thrown at me. But I was expected to work, that is true.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press. Come on, I would never get elected to shit.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true. Haha, I have zero representatives who are butch or trans.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I am not cisgendered, so that would be a NO.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I had a big brother who was allowed to do EVERYTHING and I wasn't allowed to have the toys I wanted or play the sports or go with Dad on fishing trips or any of that shit. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Hah, no butches/transpeople like me in any media, ever.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. Not even close. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. I am always wondering if I didn't get this job or that opportunity because of my trans status.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. That would be something, wouldn't it?
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. By whom? *shrug*
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. *shrug*
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. I just get stared at in public, and if I look at someone who is staring, they look away quickly cause they don't want to get caught doing it.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” This is true, no one has ever called me a slut. (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. HAH. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. My clothing fits like shit cause I'm short and pudgy. It is cheap though. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. True. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Nope. A cis gendered woman will probably get better treatment than me. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. There's a lot about the way I look that isn't conventional, and I am treated differently for it.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. True.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Crimes like having my car vandalized by a bunch of bigots, I don't even report because I know nothing will be done.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he. But those terms aren't considered to apply to me by the straight/cisgendered world.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. No, I have gotten that shit that too, even after my hysto, some people assume.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name. I did change my name from my birth name to "Drew". I take crap for having a male name though.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. No, just on whether the customers might be frightened by me.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male. And yet, Christian conservatives continue to tell me that I am going to hell.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. Well, really I am supposed to be married to a man and have HIS children, according to most major religions.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. True, I don't cook, but I do a lot of things around the house. (More).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. When I was married, I was a full 50% parent.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. I would never assume that. I love kids and spending time with them.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer. True, sort of. But I am not interested in straight women. I am only interested in Femmes. That's a whole different breed.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. I was called fat over and over as a kid, and my ex-wife used to call me that too. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. Perhaps that is true since I started to wear my masculinity and got divorced. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. I have never been beaten up by a partner, but my older brother beat me senseless for years when I was a kid. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” That is true. They tend to stare at me though. (More: 1 2).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. Maybe.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.

My answers are in blue. So, what do you folks think, do I have male privilege as someone who is female bodied, but male identified?

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by SyrJess

Kinda wish all mothers would make their sons watch it... Just like I wish all teenage boys had to read All's Quiet on the Western Front"

Can someone repost the link
I heard that it's going to be required reading before you get your high school diploma.

How misleading Thread Titles can be:

...only another Butch would understand. Pleeeaseeeeee I don't understand this turmoil. Reminds me of the TV shows where the gangs separate off while behind bars and condemn one another for being different.

We are a mere dot on the spectrum of this diversity rainbow.

AND TO THOSE POSTERS ABOVE , whether you know, accept me or not... It makes me heartsick to see us act like my Bio family did when they threw me away, and how society talked and tried to stomp out my light for 40 years.

I have fought to live as ME since I was 2 and a half. I do mean fought to live. I am one of the earlier Butch warriors here on this planet. Some of you know my life story, have met my bio famliy, and know the miracles of me still being alive, and being loved or rejected, I became ME, and don't need approval ratings.

I do know we should live, let live and appreciate every day, that we have the freedom to be here and to post to one another. Maybe, only when that freedom has been taken away, as mine had been, can we really understand, and extend the hand of friendship and acceptance to all.

Thanks for the respectful post shark, and to those who discovered the peaceful place called the Planet. I think I'm taking my toys and looking for another playground for now.

Tommi

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine - how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

It's not my fault that I'm white, but I certainly have a responsibility to be aware of how my presence as a white person impacts the people around me.

I am butch. Masculine is much more valued than feminine- both in society and in butch femme circles. I didn't ask it to be that way, but I still feel it's my responsibility to be aware of that, to speak up, and to be a strong ally to femmes. Not only because I love femmes but also because of this inequity that exists. I have an extra responsibility because of it. I don't go around crying it's not my fault. I have done my best over the years and will continue to do so.

It mystifies me that male identified people are saying they don't have a responsibility to be aware of their surroundings and how being male identified can impact others, particularly when they are in a community of primarily female people. I am absolutely mystified. Taking personal responsibility and being aware of how your presence and participation in a community may impact others- it certainly appears to be a dying and lost art.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by sharkchomp

Bulldog
I do not understand how I - as a male identified butch have any responsibility to you or anyone other than kindness and respect as a human. I do not think I have any more of an impact in a community online or rt than anyone else. And if I do have some kind of an impact that is more - more whatever than anyone else then isn't it the person's own personal shit that gives it more meaning than than it is mine?

I simply don't get it. What you wrote pisses me off. I feel like I need to walk some kind of tight rope around female identified butches. I feel like it's not ok to be me. I direct this specifically to you Bulldog and I'd appreciate it if no one else jumps in cause this is between her and me please.

Between "her and me" are the keywords here, I hope you can differentiate that and not "feel like you have to walk a tight rope around female identified butches". Painting ALL of a group with the words of one person just doesn't work for me, but pretty much gives the in to respond to that

Am I personalizing this? Cause I truly feel like you're attacking male identified butches. Honestly, I feel like you hate male identified butches. I honestly feel like you feel margonalized by our very presence and in turn try to silence us. Perhaps I take your words too personally. But after I read your posts I'm almost always angry.

I'm not attacking you - I truly want you to understand that. I'm sure you must be a good person and I say that with all sincerity. So look at this post as someone honestly trying to get it please.

If you and I - a male identified butch and a female identified butch walk into a room and people treat me differently than you - how does that reflect on me? How is that my fault? I do not understand how you can hold me accountable to someone elses actions or consequently their reactions. If society has raised them to listen to the masculine over the feminine- how is that my fault? Should you not be having this conversation with the people who treat us differently - like femmes or whoever? rather than me/other male id'ed butches? Have male id'ed butches treated you differently or has it been other people who id differently that have made you feel margonalized next to us?

I'm just going to briefly address this equating or switching out of the words "male" with masculine and "female" with feminine mid thought. Male does not mean more masculine and doesn't in any way is a guarantee of a more masculine essence/energy/presentation etc. than a female ID may carry (or vice versa for that matter the maleID that may carry feminine energy). It's all pretty relative... but we all have a responsibility to not perpetuate these type of concrete stereotyping of different types of butch IDs.

And male privilege? Again, I don't think you need to be posting to me or other male id'ed butches because we cannot give privilege to ourselves! And when you say stuff like this it honestly makes me feel shunned, dismissed, silenced. Again, to be clear, I'm not attacking you - I'm trying to explain how I feel and I wonder if there's something I'm missing? I do understand that you feel margonalized perhaps silenced too. But after reading your posts I feel like you point the finger at male identified butches instead of the people who have actually margonalized and silenced you.

Again, I want to be clear, I'm not writing this in anger - there is no anger in the tone behind my words, but more frustration than anything. I honestly want to understand what or if I'm missing something.

Sincerely
Shark

I know you asked to keep this between her and you, but when you make generalizations about various IDs you pretty much invite all comers. I'm not really interested in debate on this but really more attempting to prevent leaving these types things out there unchallenged as if they have validity.



Metro

[Jett]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

The Male Privilege Checklist
1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed. I have never even been considered for a prestigious job. I have only worked at places where I was at the bottom wrung of the ladder.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex - even though that might be true. More like in spite of my sex and gender appearing to not fit together, by cis/het standards. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex. It's because my sex and gender don't correspond.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities. Hah, that's funny.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. Actually, I have been mocked and whispered about, made fun of no matter which bathroom I used, etc. by my coworkers. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job. NOT. I was expected to fail, and when I didn't do everything perfectly the first time, I was mocked for not being "tough" enough.
7. If I’m a teen or adult, and if I can stay out of prison, my odds of being raped are relatively low. I HAVE been raped. (More).
8. On average, I am taught to fear walking alone after dark in average public spaces much less than my female counterparts are. I have been followed home by a group of teenage boys laughing and making rude comments to me.
9. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question. No, but I am not given my due as my daughter's parent because my ex-wife gave birth to her, not me.
10. If I have children but do not provide primary care for them, my masculinity will not be called into question. Not sure, my ex-wife has only allowed me to have a peripheral role in Jessica's life after we split up.
11. If I have children and provide primary care for them, I’ll be praised for extraordinary parenting if I’m even marginally competent. Again, never had this chance. (More).
12. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home. Never had that one thrown at me. But I was expected to work, that is true.
13. If I seek political office, my relationship with my children, or who I hire to take care of them, will probably not be scrutinized by the press. Come on, I would never get elected to shit.
14. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true. Haha, I have zero representatives who are butch or trans.
15. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be. I am not cisgendered, so that would be a NO.
16. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters. I had a big brother who was allowed to do EVERYTHING and I wasn't allowed to have the toys I wanted or play the sports or go with Dad on fishing trips or any of that shit. (More).
17. As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default. Hah, no butches/transpeople like me in any media, ever.
18. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often. Not even close. (More).
19. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether or not it has sexist overtones. I am always wondering if I didn't get this job or that opportunity because of my trans status.
20. I can turn on the television or glance at the front page of the newspaper and see people of my own sex widely represented, every day, without exception. That would be something, wouldn't it?
21. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex. By whom? *shrug*
22. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex. *shrug*
23. I can speak in public to a large group without putting my sex on trial. I just get stared at in public, and if I look at someone who is staring, they look away quickly cause they don't want to get caught doing it.
24. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.” This is true, no one has ever called me a slut. (More).
25. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability or my gender conformity. HAH. (More).
26. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status. While I have fewer options, my clothes will probably fit better than a woman’s without tailoring. My clothing fits like shit cause I'm short and pudgy. It is cheap though. (More).
27. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time. True. (More).
28. If I buy a new car, chances are I’ll be offered a better price than a woman buying the same car. Nope. A cis gendered woman will probably get better treatment than me. (More).
29. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore. There's a lot about the way I look that isn't conventional, and I am treated differently for it.
30. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch. True.
31. I can ask for legal protection from violence that happens mostly to men without being seen as a selfish special interest, since that kind of violence is called “crime” and is a general social concern. (Violence that happens mostly to women is usually called “domestic violence” or “acquaintance rape,” and is seen as a special interest issue.) Crimes like having my car vandalized by a bunch of bigots, I don't even report because I know nothing will be done.
32. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, he. But those terms aren't considered to apply to me by the straight/cisgendered world.
33. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is. No, I have gotten that shit that too, even after my hysto, some people assume.
34. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name. I did change my name from my birth name to "Drew". I take crap for having a male name though.
35. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon. No, just on whether the customers might be frightened by me.
36. Every major religion in the world is led primarily by people of my own sex. Even God, in most major religions, is pictured as male. And yet, Christian conservatives continue to tell me that I am going to hell.
37. Most major religions argue that I should be the head of my household, while my wife and children should be subservient to me. Well, really I am supposed to be married to a man and have HIS children, according to most major religions.
38. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks. True, I don't cook, but I do a lot of things around the house. (More).
39. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing. When I was married, I was a full 50% parent.
40. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers. I would never assume that. I love kids and spending time with them.
41. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer. True, sort of. But I am not interested in straight women. I am only interested in Femmes. That's a whole different breed.
42. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. I was called fat over and over as a kid, and my ex-wife used to call me that too. (More). If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do. Perhaps that is true since I started to wear my masculinity and got divorced. (More).
43. If I am heterosexual, it’s incredibly unlikely that I’ll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. I have never been beaten up by a partner, but my older brother beat me senseless for years when I was a kid. (More).
44. Complete strangers generally do not walk up to me on the street and tell me to “smile.” That is true. They tend to stare at me though. (More: 1 2).
45. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men. Maybe.
46. I have the privilege of being unaware of my male privilege.


My answers are in blue. So, what do you folks think, do I have male privilege as someone who is female bodied, but male identified?

Interesting... I did answer "true" to many of the same questions atomiczombie and actually a few more of the questions on that list, and (though I'm not male ID) I'm apparently receiving fair amount of male priviledge (seemingly on appearance R/L).

ETA: I think male priviledge is a very fickle thing when it comes to butches, and we all should take a look before just absolving ourselves of the need to check it based on other injustices we may receive as butches.