Do it or die!

[Kaison]

Guys,

I'm a little bit miffed at how many times someone says it's your choice to transition. You chose to be a man.

Actually - I didn't chose to transition my only other option was 6ft under and I being a slight extremist here?

Surely, if you didn't HAVE to transition you would not put yourself through all of the agro and needles, surgery, hormone changes and everything else that comes with it.

[Corkey]

I think it's highly personal, and subjective.
Me, in my I place, cannot transition, but offing myself over something I cannot change isn't an answer. I also think it's a bit dramatic. I do know that transitioning is purely personal and one should have a support system in place. But I'm 53 and it isn't going to happen for me, yet I've lived my entire life in this skin with these bits, which I do my darnedest to ignore on a daily basis.
I was born this way and have fought all my life just to be seen as a human being, no matter the skin I inhabit.

[kittygrrl]

I've learned, that it's almost impossible to understand another person's pain unless I have personal experience..Even if you're empathetic and close to the situation..unless you are going thru the exact same thing..you just can't..ie losing a child to suicide..unimaginable unless you've had a similar loss..so whether it's by choice or some other compelling need that drives some of us to certain ends or paths the only thing we as bystanders can do is to offer whatever kind of support or comfort we are able to give..which usually falls short of what a person going thru a life alternating change probably needs..it's one of those things you have to do mostly alone..really hard, and very lonely.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Kaison

Guys,

I'm a little bit miffed at how many times someone says it's your choice to transition. You chose to be a man.

Actually - I didn't chose to transition my only other option was 6ft under and I being a slight extremist here?

Surely, if you didn't HAVE to transition you would not put yourself through all of the agro and needles, surgery, hormone changes and everything else that comes with it.

Obviously the people who say that being trans is a "choice" don't know what they're talking about.

At the same time, I think it's really important to recognise that transitioning does not necessarily just mean needles/surgery/hormones for all trans people. What we can say that most of us have in common is struggling to live our lives openly as our real sex/gender/identity in a society that is largely not trans-positive. Some guys don't have the resources/money for surgery or hormones, while other guys don't feel they need it. But no matter the situation as far as surgery/hormones, most guys live life as guys who were incorrectly and coercively assigned "female" at birth.

So there I would say, if it was a "choice," I don't think a lot of transguys would go through the hardship of constantly having to assert who they are within a society that often tries to deny them that dignity of being who they are. In a society that still views us as "mentally ill" for simply being a part of natural human diversity.

At the same time, the focus on being trans as something no one would want to go through if they had a choice kind of puts a negative connotation on being trans. Yeah, there are a lot of social consequences, but often those consequences exist because of the intolerant and cis-normative nature of our societies. While I definitely hate body dysphoria and can't wait for top surgery, I see that as separate from my being trans (since there are some transguys who have less body dysphoria, or who don't have it all; who will tell you that their body is male because they are male). I'm at a point where I would no longer trade being transmale in order to have been born cismale. Despite society's bullshit and how shitty dysphoria is, I'm happy with myself as a transguy.

I think we, as a community, would benefit from starting to change our perspectives of ourselves as transpeople. From moving away from the traditional medical community's opinion of us as having a "disorder," and embracing ourselves as a part of the diversity present in human sex. We need to stop seeing the biased/cis-normative medical community as experts on us, because they aren't.

I also want to add that even though many transpeople who don't have the resources for surgery/hormones manage to deal, a lot of transpeople don't make it. I definitely don't blame them or look negatively upon them for choosing to end their own lives. If I could help them choose to continue to live, and to get them the support they need I certainly would. But their suicides are the consequence of living in the intolerant and excessively normative societies that we live in. I certainly don't blame those of us who feel they can't take it anymore. It's unfortunate, but hopefully society will wake up one day and see what it does to marginalized peoples and how many lives could be saved.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Obviously the people who say that being trans is a "choice" don't know what they're talking about.

At the same time, I think it's really important to recognise that transitioning does not necessarily just mean needles/surgery/hormones for all trans people. What we can say that most of us have in common is struggling to live our lives openly as our real sex/gender/identity in a society that is largely not trans-positive. Some guys don't have the resources/money for surgery or hormones, while other guys don't feel they need it. But no matter the situation as far as surgery/hormones, most guys live life as guys who were incorrectly and coercively assigned "female" at birth.

So there I would say, if it was a "choice," I don't think a lot of transguys would go through the hardship of constantly having to assert who they are within a society that often tries to deny them that dignity of being who they are. In a society that still views us as "mentally ill" for simply being a part of natural human diversity.

At the same time, the focus on being trans as something no one would want to go through if they had a choice kind of puts a negative connotation on being trans. Yeah, there are a lot of social consequences, but often those consequences exist because of the intolerant and cis-normative nature of our societies. While I definitely hate body dysphoria and can't wait for top surgery, I see that as separate from my being trans (since there are some transguys who have less body dysphoria, or who don't have it all; who will tell you that their body is male because they are male). I'm at a point where I would no longer trade being transmale in order to have been born cismale. Despite society's bullshit and how shitty dysphoria is, I'm happy with myself as a transguy.

I think we, as a community, would benefit from starting to change our perspectives of ourselves as transpeople. From moving away from the traditional medical community's opinion of us as having a "disorder," and embracing ourselves as a part of the diversity present in human sex. We need to stop seeing the biased/cis-normative medical community as experts on us, because they aren't.
I also want to add that even though many transpeople who don't have the resources for surgery/hormones manage to deal, a lot of transpeople don't make it. I definitely don't blame them or look negatively upon them for choosing to end their own lives. If I could help them choose to continue to live, and to get them the support they need I certainly would. [U]But their suicides are the consequence of living in the intolerant and excessively normative societies that we live in. I certainly don't blame those of us who feel they can't take it anymore. It's unfortunate, but hopefully society will wake up one day and see what it does to marginalized peoples and how many lives could be saved.

Ender, you are an insightful one, IMO. I concur on not wanting to have been born a cismale and happy with my Transmasculine Butch/Transman/Queer status. That is why I have posted at times that "I am not a mistake." I am exactly who I was born to be.

It is so true about marginalized peoples. So many people who not fit the "normal" cookie cutter image for various reasons are dismissed, pressured to be normal and if you don't relent there are consequences.

The other side of that is that I do think I have a choice as to how I will respond to all of this societal pressure. I do admit many times it feels as if I don't have choice and never will. IMO, that is an untruth.

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Ender, you are an insightful one, IMO. I concur on not wanting to have been born a cismale and happy with my Transmasculine Butch/Transman/Queer status. That is why I have posted at times that "I am not a mistake." I am exactly who I was born to be.

It is so true about marginalized peoples. So many people who not fit the "normal" cookie cutter image for various reasons are dismissed, pressured to be normal and if you don't relent there are consequences.

The other side of that is that I do think I have a choice as to how I will respond to all of this societal pressure. I do admit many times it feels as if I don't have choice and never will. IMO, that is an untruth.

if you're referring to my use of the word choice, perhaps I did not make my intent clear. There is no choice involved when it comes to how we are born..the only choice i spoke of is some will act and some will choose not to. Not everyone (who is) goes down that road but they are no less passionately trans then someone who can. Just sayin..

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

if you're referring to my use of the word choice, perhaps I did not make my intent clear. There is no choice involved when it comes to how we are born..the only choice i spoke of is some will act and some will choose not to. Not everyone (who is) goes down that road but they are no less passionately trans then someone who can. Just sayin..

No, I was not referring to your post. I express my opinion because I have a thought I want to share. It is not to make anyone in particular look suspect.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Ender, you are an insightful one, IMO. I concur on not wanting to have been born a cismale and happy with my Transmasculine Butch/Transman/Queer status. That is why I have posted at times that "I am not a mistake." I am exactly who I was born to be.

It is so true about marginalized peoples. So many people who not fit the "normal" cookie cutter image for various reasons are dismissed, pressured to be normal and if you don't relent there are consequences.

The other side of that is that I do think I have a choice as to how I will respond to all of this societal pressure. I do admit many times it feels as if I don't have choice and never will. IMO, that is an untruth.

I agree, Greyson, we definitely aren't "mistakes." In the irl trans community and on online trans communities I sometimes hear people talking about what "causes" someone to be born trans. Talking about how it's "not their fault" that they were born trans. It really saddens me. I think many suicides within our community are caused by this perception of ourselves.

With the "it gets better campaign" than many public figures support to end bullying for queer/lesbian/gay/bisexual youth, the message is typically not that there is something "wrong" with lgbq youth, but that society is such a way now, but that things will get better (which I think we should actually be focusing on making it better instead of making empty promises, but that is another story). Even though those campaigns are supposed to be for lgbtq youth, I often feel like the "compassion" the media advocates for transpeople (on the rare occasion that it does), is one that implies that it is not our "fault" and that we deserve pity because are born with a "disorder."

Even here in Canada, as a part of their election campaign, Ontario's Conservative Party put out transphobic flyers stating that the Liberal government of Ontario was trying to "teach children to be crossdressers" (btw, what the ad says about schools "not informing parents" is incorrect).



This ad was also run on SunTV until there was an uproar and it was removed as transphobic:



Do trans youth or gender non-conforming youth have a choice to ignore attacks like the above on who they are by a provincial and federal party? By an approved party? Yes, they do, but I would argue that many don't actually feel like they have that choice. And how do we get the info to that youth if that party won't even let teachers teach children about trans issues or queer issues? How would that youth even be able to find the info of where to find support, if their parents and school don't support them? If I'm a trans person in my teens who is struggling at school or at home with being who I am, and I see an ad like the above come on TV? An ad that is endorsed by a major political party? How do you help that kid? Does my voice matter as much, or carry as much weight as a major political party that basically tells that kid that they are a "pervert" or such bullshit? Who is that kid going to believe?

I agree that when it looks like the world is against you, or you've run into someone who treats you like you're no more than garbage on the sidewalk, we can perceive ourselves as not having a choice even though we do. I think the challenge is to show our community that not only is there a choice, but that they have a supportive community who won't reiterate what cis-normative society tells them about their so-called "disorder."

That's why I get angry when I see people like Chaz who continue to support that image of us having a "disorder" within the mainstream media. It was sad that a trans youth like Stephen Ira was basically made a mockery of and condescended to by adults and the media because of his age, when he posted his blog saying that he disagreed completely with what Chaz was saying that trans people have a "birth defect." Now if you want a transguy with white male upper class privilege, there you have one in Chaz Bono. Yet who's mentality is going to give trans youth some hope? Someone who convinces them that they were born "defective," or someone who tells them that there isn't anything wrong with them?

So yeah. I definitely agree that there is always a choice. But I think its about reaching out to high risk trans people who need the support, and showing them that they have a community. I've personally known one transperson who committed suicide, and I certainly hope she's the last. In addition to being a trans woman of colour she was also a sex worker. She had people supporting her, but once she stepped outside of that support network she had to go every day into a world that told her she was garbage, that not even provincial law would stand up for her against those who harmed her. At some point, I think society and the government itself needs to start being accountable. We need the power to hold them accountable.

I dunno. It's tough. On the one hand you want to tell people that despite the odds, they have the choice and that they need to be strong. But all it takes is one day where you just lose hope entirely. I just wish there were less transfolks who lost hope to that degree. And I know definitely what it's like to feel so horrible about your life that you really can't see clearly through to the possibility of anything ever getting better. Like what's the point? I think many of us in the lgbtq community have been there, for sure. And thankfully a lot of us have lived through it. The sad thing is that I can't even remember what even made me decide to keep going when I felt that way, so that I might pass that on to those who feel like they have no hope. I know that ever since I accepted myself fully as a guy and eventually as a transguy I look forward to the future, and that even when things get shitty for the first time in my life I really don't want to die anymore. I owe so much to finding a supportive community where I live. And that is all it took for me was to find that support network I could come home to, where people "get it" and where we don't judge each other, where we stand up for each other. But not everyone has that, and I wish to hell they did. Especially a lot of trans sex workers or trans people who are homeless and in the shelter system don't have that.

Ideally I agree and think we need to step away from perceiving ourselves as having only two choices, or focusing on whether we have a "choice" or not, and instead just step away from the theoretical into figuring out how to change things or help those around us, and then maybe by extension things will change.

[PaPa]

I guess the first thought that crosses my mind in regard to this thread is the differentiation between self-awareness and self-acceptance. First of all, I know I can only speak for myself in this post and not that of others. With that said, for me, knowing I was trans was part of my self-awareness of my identity. I would not say it took searching to determine that since I was always very masculine, but since it was an innate set of characteristics, it was not something that was a learned behavior or socialized aspect of me. I will admit though that since it was not the quote unquote norm (this word norm used very tongue in cheek since I hate this word), and since I did lead a very sheltered life, being raised by my grandparents, it did take me awhile to fully “get it” and accept that identity as “yes. This is who I am. I am a Transmasculine Butch”.

With that said, there is totally a difference between admittance and acceptance. I think for most transguys and I probably should not say this for all so will state it for me….that linkage into trans was an “A-Ha!” moment for me. From that point, many questions about limits came into play. What are my boundaries and limits about my identity? What do I deem as acceptable and non-acceptable for me?

Some of those questions could include: “Am I comfortable with my body given my trans identity?”; “Do I feel it necessary to go through sex reassignment surgery given my trans identity?”; “If I do transition, am I doing it to make myself feel complete or to fulfill a societal expectation?”; “If I get the reassignment surgeries, will I ever be viewed as acceptable by societal standards?”; and many other questions.

I think here it is also important to add to the equation that FTM surgeries have not been a priority in the medical community or in society in general because it breaks the Patriarchal assigned roles. If FTM are allowed to break the ranks into the higher class male ranks, then how will society be able to continue the path of separation because then there would be a need to separate the “real” men from the “trans” men. Either way persons within the trans group would still be members of a disempowered subgroup. Just to continue train of thought here….I think more emphasis has been given in the medical community toward MTF reassignment surgeries, because according to the Patriarchal hierarchy men who reassign as women lose status. It is always easier in a society to go down the hierarchical ladder than to go up.

But back to self-acceptance. I think each of us have our own hurdles with what we find acceptable, what limits or boundaries we set for ourselves, and what path we choose to take. However, I also think we have an obligation to others members of the trans community to reach out to assist each other in our struggles. Getting the word out to younger groups remains difficult since trans education still remains very closed. It is in our own walk that we will come into the lives of others and be able to set the example. Living as an example is just one way to help break the stereotypes. We are still those who are pioneering for a better life for those who follow. That must be remembered as we go about our daily lives.

On one other note, this is just thoughts coming from my Vocational Rehabilitation background. In working with persons with disabilities....if breaking down the word disability we get "dis" and "ability" which means a lack of ability in some area. To Chaz, he viewed it as an inability to be the person he felt he truly was. I understand that it takes on a negative connotation, but he was trying to convert the negative into a positive. I truly believe that is what the purpose of that analogy was. A birth defect is a disability. His disability was being stuck in a female body. Therefore, he resorted to a surgery similar to someone who would have a cleft palate or some other birth defect that is correctable by surgery. For me, I find this empowering because he was able to change not only his perception to one that was more positive, but he was also able to give hope to others who previously felt there was no hope.

Those are just my thoughts on this issue. I think all of you have added very positive aspects to this discussion. Thanks for listening to my rambling and thanks for your input as well.

[Nadeest]

It took me a long time to figure things out and be able to accept myself fully. At that point, though, it was either transition or die. I couldn't deal with it any longer. As I told a friend of mine who had asked me why I was transitioning, I was simply tired unto death, and it was time for a change.
I think that there is varying degrees of GID and that influences how badly that we need to transition. Another factor that we each tend to consider is the price that we are liable to have to pay, if we choose to transition. After all, we risk losing everything in our lives that we have built up, from our relationships to our financial affairs. The older that we are, the more that we have built up, and the more that we are used to dealing with the situation as it is. This would tend to influence our decisions, I would think.
As far as the FTM surguries not being a priority, I do tend to agree with PaPa, but I also think that there might well be other factors in play, here. There may be technical difficulties to be considered as well, you know. I do not know for certain, nor have I done the research to be sure, one way or another, but I was told long ago, by an elderly ftm that I met at a support group meeting, that babies with indeterminate gender at birth were often coercively assigned female by surgury, as it was easier to dig a ditch, then build a pole. (Um, that was his choice of phrase to explain it, not mine, but it does work.).
Another factor to be considered, I think, is that it has generally been easier for someone that has been coercively assigned female at birth to express their masculinity via clothing and actions then it has been for someone that was coercively assigned male at birth to express their femiminity. This tends to lead MTFs to need to transition more then it does for FTMs, and thus, the demand for FTM surguries tends to be less then for MTFs. Of course, I could be all wet, as well.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Nadeest

It took me a long time to figure things out and be able to accept myself fully. At that point, though, it was either transition or die. I couldn't deal with it any longer. As I told a friend of mine who had asked me why I was transitioning, I was simply tired unto death, and it was time for a change.
I think that there is varying degrees of GID and that influences how badly that we need to transition. Another factor that we each tend to consider is the price that we are liable to have to pay, if we choose to transition. After all, we risk losing everything in our lives that we have built up, from our relationships to our financial affairs. The older that we are, the more that we have built up, and the more that we are used to dealing with the situation as it is. This would tend to influence our decisions, I would think.
As far as the FTM surguries not being a priority, I do tend to agree with PaPa, but I also think that there might well be other factors in play, here. There may be technical difficulties to be considered as well, you know. I do not know for certain, nor have I done the research to be sure, one way or another, but I was told long ago, by an elderly ftm that I met at a support group meeting, that babies with indeterminate gender at birth were often coercively assigned female by surgury, as it was easier to dig a ditch, then build a pole. (Um, that was his choice of phrase to explain it, not mine, but it does work.).
Another factor to be considered, I think, is that it has generally been easier for someone that has been coercively assigned female at birth to express their masculinity via clothing and actions then it has been for someone that was coercively assigned male at birth to express their femiminity. This tends to lead MTFs to need to transition more then it does for FTMs, and thus, the demand for FTM surguries tends to be less then for MTFs. Of course, I could be all wet, as well.

I agree with most everything you've said except for that bolded part. While I agree that in today's society (though not necessarily in the past as many older transguys will attest to) it is easier for people assigned female at birth to be accepted when they express cultural masculinity (though to be accepted as male is different) than it is for people assigned male at birth to be accepted when expressing cultural femininity, I don't think that translates into anyone "needing" to transition any more than anyone else. Lots of guys would love to have bottom surgery but because there are so many horror stories about the results/risk of infection etc. floating around out there, a lot of guys are worried they'll be worse off than before. In places where it isn't covered by public healthcare, it's just far too out of what many can afford (whether transmale or transfemale, for that matter). If you look at the amount of guys getting top surgery (which, because it was and is more common, there are better access to the results/first hand information from guys who have had the surgery, plus more financially feasible for a lot of guys), it's much higher.

I think the need for some kind of surgery is the same, and I don't really see the need to transition as a reflection of the desire for social acceptance for all trans people. Many of us want it for ourselves rather than for social acceptance.

I'm more inclined to think that the lack of progress in bottom surgery for transguys is technological, as you said. I do think that there is some, though, in the scientific community that come from a background that makes them more inclined to not want to progress bottom surgery for transguys. Who are somehow invested in maintaining the traditional myth of "maleness" and what it constitutes.

[Nadeest]

I can definitely agree with you, EnderD_503 about the probability that there is some disinclination to make bottom surgery better for transguys out of people's investment in the traditional myth.