Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

<snip>

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

<snip>

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

[Martina]

i agree that we have few POC here and had few at the other site. There is a reason they leave. It's not THIS site's or even the other's fault although they were way lax and late about addressing the racism issue. It's a social issue. It's something we have to work at to change because if we don't, there is too much racism for most POC to tolerate.

That said, i think using a pejorative in quotes is OK if you are discussing the word and its use, not using it to offend. If it offends, it is OK to scale it back to a usage such as the n-word. But using the words in quotes is not a racist act. That it can still hurt is clear. And if that is the case, and someone tells you to stop, then by all means stop.

The same with the word "Black." i use African American at least 90 percent of the time. i hear myself use "Black" sometimes, sometimes in the context of asking someone's race. My students, who are African American and Latino, use it regularly and not as a pejorative. i just read a lovely poem by a student about her black pride. She was riffing off of a Tupac poem.

As always we should address and refer to people as they choose. i do not think modding someone for culturally accepted practices makes a lot of sense though.

[violaine]

i do not have a personal issue whenever critically thinking/sharing on a subject. i really like this [and other thought-provoking] conversations as well, and would also like for them to respectfully continue. my participation in a thread- i.e., typing out words or thanking, does not mean i have personal agenda if i do or do not not agree with someone either. if i type that is not where i'm coming from, isn't that as important as anyone else wanting to be heard on anti-racism?

i like opening up for clarification and moving on- fostering more positive relationships.

i do not know a lot about pakistan save in words, as i've never visited the country. openly discussing political issues differs greatly in other regions of the world so much from our freedom/ culture here.

[BullDog]

Racism needs to be discussed where it occurs, not moved to another thread- although other aspects of language usage and terminology could make for an additional useful discussion.

Unfortunately racism has played a role in what has occurred as well as this discussion.

I am extremely angry that a President of the United States feels compelled to trot out his birth certificate to prove that he is a U.S. citizen. The constant message is if you aren't white your U.S. citizenry is suspect.

I also feel that President Obama is not getting the respect or credit he deserves for succeeding in the mission to get Bin Laden.

It also boggles my mind that they would use a Native American name as a code word for Bin Laden. How could members of the National Security Council- including President Obama- not know how inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful this is?

Different POC individuals want to be referred to differently. We have different pronoun preferences, gender ids, etc. So why would that be surprising.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chancie

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

Here is my OP statement (#1)-

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.

[Toughy]

me in this color

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Toughy, you assumed I had no white, and if we want to get to the nitty gritty I can't not even in a census claim it since I am of Hispanic descent as they so kindly put it, when I check the census box I check what I am and that is Hispanic or better yet LATINO/A. Just because I was or have some form of white origin in me (btw I don't know exactly since the deed was not consentual) that doesn't mean I was raised, or am I culturally so, I was born in Mexico, my mother is mexican and so is my other family, now the man who raised me is white, he is my father the only one I know of. I don't have to explain why I use LATINA as my label just the same way I don't ask you to explain to me why at one time you use she or others hy.

Good grief.....I know you id as a Latina and I never questioned that. If I ever did refer to you based on your ancestry I would say Latina, not brown woman. That is not what I was asking about. I was trying to understand why I can't use the term brown, but you can use the term white. If it's disrespectful to refer to folks as brown, then it's disrespectful to refer to folks as white. Do you not understand that?


Do you not see how disrespectful and ugly that is? It's who I am I am LATINA the other blood or heritage that is in my DNA doesn't erase the fact I was raised as such, born as such and kept as such and yet my labels and how I choose to identify are continously questioned by people of lighter skin than myself. I don't even get to choose to use white if I wanted to Tougy and you care to know why?

Cause for some fucked up unknown reason people who are lighter than I and see my darker skin *automatically* assume I don't even belong here or hthat I am not American.

I am, I live in the United States of America, I am a LATINA woman, not a brown woman, my name is Snow and I am a LATINA woman who happens to have a dash of non LATINO blood in me yet I still can't identify as so because not only do caucasians not allow it, neither does a goverment when counting the great people of this nation.

I hear you and understand you get treated like shit by both POC and non-POC for various reasons. I think it's fucked up. I think there are some really fucked up asshats in this world who use fucked up ideas to demean folks. I understand it makes you look at (what seems to be) everyone with distrust. I do get that.

I also would suggest that not all us white folks are asshat racist folks. There are many of us who stand with you about things like 'papers please' legislation. I am appalled and horrified that our President had to present his 'papers please' to make those asshats shut the fuck up.


I don't feel this is a derailment of the thread, the racial slurs that have been used and have been thrown in clear print, yet for some fucked up unknown reason people want to jump down on me for not allowing them?

Do you not see the ridiculousness of that?

Frankly, I never heard folks from Pakistan referred to as P***s.......it's a new one to me. I learned something. I don't see where you have been jumped down on in this thread....certainly not by me.

I personally don't like the use of astericks in place of spelling out the actual word. When I see n*****, I think the word in my head....I don't understand why n***** is better than actually spelling out the word...the result is the same. If I had seen P***s, I would have been completely clueless. I'm not sure I would have picked up on the j** or s*** without more clarification. Those words are not something I hear said by my friends.

Should I just continue to sit silent and not derail a thread when racist comments are being made? I just don't understand how much more (even if it ONE POC saying please don't) this community expects for POC to take.

Is that the goal, to have all POC silenced regardless of how small and simple the request and for the sake of not derailing?

I think racist stuff should be called out when and where it happens.

My suggesting another thread for this was about the big picture conversation concerning using crayola colors when talking about folks. The big picture about terminology and what is appropriate and not appropriate on the Planet.

My goal was to have a conversation, not to silence anyone. I am not in the habit of trying to silence folks. I welcome disscusion and conversation about ideas and concepts, not about individuals. As Random pointed out....there are folks on this site that prefer 'crayola colors' to ancestral origins in describing themselves or others.

Is this for realz?

I absolutley loathe the term 'caucasian'. It enforces the idea there are only 3 racial groups: Cacasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. It ignores the idea that race is a social construct. It inhibits our ability to understand race and gender as social contructs and not scientific fact.
Understanding that race is not science, makes it easier to move forward on issues of equality

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not doing the merry go round with you Toughy where you act like you didn't mean anything or it wasn't personal, or you weren't just singling it me out because frankly I don't believe you. I am noticing that my use of the word white is getting more attention and more lecturing than the other racist slurs that were used.

That's odd to me and tells me A LOT.

I don't get why it's so hard to not use the words, why can't a person be considerate enough to just listen, and frankly white is not an offensive nor is it an oppressing term to use when referring to people nor has white been used historically, socially as an opressing term.

It's beyond me how you can't see it and honestly telling how once again no matter how much a POC (even if one) asks that people aren't going to listen because it's gonna be all about the majority and certainly not the minority.

[Toughy]

Snow I am sorry you think I am a liar and think we have some sort of bad blood between us. Neither of those things are true for me. I was hoping for a conversation about ideas with you and other folks.....conversations are not merry-go-rounds in my mind.

It is very disheartening to try to be clear and not have you understand it. I don't know what else to do or say. It is disheartening to have you not address my questions so I may be able to understand your position. I truly want to understand what I saw as an inconsistency in your statements.


I have no issues with how Ender used those racial slurs. I agree with the idea that those words can be spelled out and used in conversation in a non-racist manner. I dont' believe the context in which Ender used those terms to be racist. It was, in fact, pointing out racism.

I have not nor will I ever refer to you personally as a brown woman. You request Latina and it will as always be Latina, when appropriate, in reference to you as I stated above. I respect your preferences. I also respect other POC folks preferences. I call people what they want. Sometimes what one person likes, another hates. Someone pointed out it's similiar to pronouns.......there are personal preferences.

The issue is what is the acceptable culture for the Planet. I'm not sure how to address that because of the differences of opinion among POC about the use of 'crayola color' when referring to POC. It is a conundrum for sure.

Happy Mother's Day tomorrow........I hope you have a great one.

[The_Lady_Snow]

We're not going to agree on how words should be used since for you they have a different feel to them, I did not nor do I like when a person who is not of any kind of LATINO/A descent uses the words sp** and it's a disgusting and ugly term, it shouldn't matter how it was used, what should matter is a member of a community as that those terms not be used, or better yet take the time to refer to someone by their cultural reference.

I don't see you Toughy calling out (that's what this has turned to) any other person but me for using the term *white* there are other POC that have yet you are *choosing* to police me, and continue to deflect it on me because of the word white??

I am now up to GAWD knows how many posts explaining over and over why I felt the way I did, and all I've gotten is the wagging of the finger for using the words white.

As I said earlier, I get the big picture, and even though the slurs were used, and only one POC (me) says don't do it it's not going to be listened to, what this has now turned into as this is how it feels to me as a member of this community that how I address a white person is being scrutinized.

Consider me silenced I should of known my place.

ETA

This is not the first time I have asked in a mannerly fashion for the word sp*** to not be used.

[Toughy]

shaking my head............you will attach whatever you want to what I write.......my words are there to speak for me

(except for moderators on this website) the only person who can silence you is yourself..........

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

We're not going to agree on how words should be used since for you they have a different feel to them, I did not nor do I like when a person who is not of any kind of LATINO/A descent uses the words sp** and it's a disgusting and ugly term, it shouldn't matter how it was used, what should matter is a member of a community as that those terms not be used, or better yet take the time to refer to someone by their cultural reference.

I don't see you Toughy calling out (that's what this has turned to) any other person but me for using the term *white* there are other POC that have yet you are *choosing* to police me, and continue to deflect it on me because of the word white??

I am now up to GAWD knows how many posts explaining over and over why I felt the way I did, and all I've gotten is the wagging of the finger for using the words white.

As I said earlier, I get the big picture, and even though the slurs were used, and only one POC (me) says don't do it it's not going to be listened to, what this has now turned into as this is how it feels to me as a member of this community that how I address a white person is being scrutinized.

Consider me silenced I should of known my place.

ETA

This is not the first time I have asked in a mannerly fashion for the word sp*** to not be used.

That word and many others have no place here or anywhere.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Concerning one of bin Laden's wives and child(ren) seeing him get a part of his head blown off. The wife knew what could happen if she lived with him. She did not have to be there, nor did the children. I'm not likely to shed a tear or have a second thought about her seeing him get killed.

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Words

Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

Thank you. i normally don't get "upset" by posts, but an earlier one saying that his wives were there probably just for sex and that the kids were just basically thought of as new canon fodder for the revolution nearly made me wretch.

That is classic othering. CLASSIC dehumanization of the other. If you say someone cannot love their wives or their children, what are they? If we dehumanize others, then we are doing exactly what Osama did, which is what made it possible for him to kill innocents.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Words

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

This brings me back to working with foster kids, far too many of them seeing a parent (or both) murdered. They never get over this. In some cases, the parents knew they were putting their kids in harms way, but drug induced states clouded common sense.

I don't believe bin Laden should have had his kids in that situation in the first place. It goes against my every thread of what parent protection ought to be.

However, I realize that I am speaking from a very different cultural perspective. I have never lived (well, until 9/11- but still very different than countless countries where this stuff goes on almost daily) with this kind of violence surrounding me as part of life.

There are many, many of us here in the US that derive no satisfaction from the killing of his kids or some of them seeing this. They are little kids.

It is the "part of life" worldwide that bothers me- and what feels like a lack of any regard for figuring out how we (the US) can change how we are viewed. This bothers me deeply. There is no “closure” here at all.

[Toughy]

I am not always perfect. I try to be. I try to always see the humanity in folks. I certainly am not celebrating his death or the manner in which he was killed. As I said my preference was alive and in our civilian judicial system.

As to why an unarmed man was killed........without being there I cannot say why it happened. Having been in the military I can see how it would happen. War kills unarmed folks. There was every justified expectation that bin Laden was armed and dangerous. He had said he would not be taken alive.

However your point is taken. It is a bad thing to not really care about what a woman and her child saw, regardless of who they are.

Originally Posted by Words

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Glenn]

This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[Toughy]

I have no idea about Pakistan except to continue engaging them in a constructive manner. They have nukes, so we must look at them differently. India also has nukes. There has been border wars for years and years and they don't like each other at all. Letting enemies deal with Pakistan makes me nervous when I think about the possiblity of nuclear weapons being used by and/or against Pakistan.

We have safe haven for 'terrorists' in this country. We allow the christian majority to oppress and kill folks that don't agree with their particular version of christianity. We invaded and destroyed a country for no damn good reason (Iraq).

I do know what I would do about Afghanistan: start the withdrawal of every single military person AND every single mercenary...ooppppsss private security people. Obama says we will start withdrawal in June or July this year. I also think no military base should be there........I'm not sure what Obama has to say about that. A consulate and a few Marines should be left.

I also think the same thing should be done in Iraq.....all US troops and mercenaries should be withdrawn. No military base in Iraq. A consulate and the marines who protect them should be there.

[AtLast]

One of the things that always enters my mind concerning Pakistan is the assination of Benazir Bhutto.

[sharkchomp]

Did Pakistan know where bin Laden was? I'd say yes and I'd say several nations probally did. We may have even known he was there for a while, but I'm sure politics had to be worked out before we moved in. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want him there and a 'deal' was worked out with us.

Do I feel bad that he was killed? Nope. I'm not out celebrating in the streets but I do feel a small justice has been served. I've read a lot of people saying in essense they couldn't condone his murder, but bin Laden wasn't a nice guy. He was an evil man with an agenda, much like Hitler. The United States is a pretty forgiving nation, I get it. It's been ten years and a lot of people have died over the 'war against terror'. But I think back to the day the Towers (our nation) was attacked. Thousands of people died gruesomely. People jumped out of the Twin Towers to their deaths. I'll never forget the sounds of their bodies impacting the ground, sounding like small explosions. A person has to be facing something pretty horrific to jump to their death. People burned. People were ground to bits to never be found in the collapse. People were on planes going on the merry way. I can only imagine their fear as the terrorists took over the planes, waiting to be rescued or trying to regain control of the plane. Those people were our fellow Americans. They were someones Daddy or Mommy, someone's son or daughter, husband or wife. So no, I don't feel bad he was murdered. I'm sure the families of the people who were murdered on 9-11 don't feel bad that he is dead either.

Also, I want to add this. When we invaded Iraq (the second time), I was very against this war but a couple of years ago I worked with someone from Iraq. I asked her if she was against the war/invasion. She said, "No, I'm not against it at all. Sadam was killed and that is a great thing. Now the U.S. hasn't kept some of the promises they made, but otherwise, it's much better over there." It was a great conversation and I learned a lot from her about how the Iraq people view our government. So perhaps in a small way, the war was worth it? I'm still undecided but after her conversation I did feel a bit better about it.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Glenn]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.