Respecting Women's Space as a transgender male

[TenderKnight]

Greetings

First off, I am posting this thread to start a discussion about Women's Space and how as transgender males we can respect it.

I know that this has been a process for me, sometimes a painful one. I came out as a lesbian at 18, I ID'd as female. Not because I *felt* female, but because that is the only way I thought I could ID. Then I discovered the Gender Spectrum. WOW.. I found where I belonged!

I am a guy. As such, I don't go into women only space.. I *don't* belong. I am not saying that because I feel excluded and negitive about, more along the lines of I am not a woman, so why would I go into thier space?

It did and still does kind of feel weird. It is something I have to grieve, this loss of being part of that community. I will grieve a bit when I get my Top surgery too, I think.. I am going to lose something that has been with me always. Not saying that I don't want the fat sacks gone, God knows that I DO.. But it is also a further step into being part of the male community.

I hope that I am being clear here, I am never sure if I am or not.. lol

My points in this thread are these..

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

I look forward to seeing how this thread spins out.. I truely hope that it is read as I intend and not as a bash or a rehash of other topics.

Thank you,
Tony

[Linus]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

Oh no. I feel really awkward as it as a techie geek having to go in to reply to questions about the site. Now, would I read some threads to understand things better? Ya. No different than I'd expect cis-gendered individuals reading here.

How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

Stay out of their space and from commenting on it. Unless there's something I don't understand and in those cases, I PM the person directly.

Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

I still have top and hysto to do. I think I grieved over myself ages ago. I so wanted to understand what it's like to feel at peace with the soul matching what the mind and body see/are that it was painful to see others have that. I do not feel a loss at this point as much as I do have a sense of accomplishment.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

1. Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

2. How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

3. Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

1. No.

2. I give it to them. I think all people are deserving of some kind of place or space that feels good and safe to them. I wouldn't ever want to be the reason another person felt uncomfortable in a space they consider "theirs".

3. No, not that I can really think of.

I'm curious, Tony... Are the questions you have about "women only" spaces just in general......kind of random........or does it have to do with *this* space.......this website? Do you think others (or do you) see this website as a "women only" space?

Thinker

[TenderKnight]

Thinker,

I was posting more in general then in regards to this site.. I don't think this is women's only space.. Not all the Butches here ID as women. This is a queer site to me..

I know that some of the local events here I get an invite to by lesbain, gay, or queer folks.. These are lesbian or women events.. No, I don't go to these, because I am not a woman. I have been invited to women's meeting in AA too by lesbains in the program.. Again, I am not a women and I won't go to them.

I can see how this thread can be seen as a refection or reaction to the ID/gender/women debates that are going on right now, and I guess, in a way, it is.. It has gotten me to thinking about other situations in my real time life.. Thank you for asking for clarification, and I hope that I cleared it up for you.

In Light,
Tony

[Jet]

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?
No and I have always been male ID'd; there's no after about it

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?
No.

[Hudson]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Thinker,

I was posting more in general then in regards to this site.. I don't think this is women's only space.. Not all the Butches here ID as women. This is a queer site to me..

I know that some of the local events here I get an invite to by lesbain, gay, or queer folks.. These are lesbian or women events.. No, I don't go to these, because I am not a woman. I have been invited to women's meeting in AA too by lesbains in the program.. Again, I am not a women and I won't go to them.

I guess I'm confused as to why any man (cis or trans) would need to explain why he doesn't go to 'lesbian' or 'women' events by stating he's 'not a woman'. Does it feel threatening to be invited? The OP and this one sound misogynistic to me. It *sounds* like you're rejecting woman space because there are women involved, not because you're uninterested in the activity or event.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

No.

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

I do my best to stay out of their space.

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

Quite the contrary, I felt a great loss prior to my decision to transition, and afterwards, I felt whole.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by Hudson

I guess I'm confused as to why any man (cis or trans) would need to explain why he doesn't go to 'lesbian' or 'women' events by stating he's 'not a woman'. Does it feel threatening to be invited? The OP and this one sound misogynistic to me. It *sounds* like you're rejecting woman space because there are women involved, not because you're uninterested in the activity or event.

Well, honestly, I *AM* rejecting it because women are involved. I have just started to pass and those that knew be before I started hormones thought of me as a really butch female.. I could be VERY interested in the activity and actually may way to go.. But I also know that there those involved in said events that wouldn't want me there because I am male. I try not to disrespect people as a general rule.

Do I feel threatened by being invited? No, a little exasperated? Yes. Would a transwomen want to be invited to an all gay male event? Maybe, but usually no.. Because they are women, not gay men or drag queens.

On a side note, I could be invited because this person doesn't respect my ID.. Or the inviter could just be "respecting my past as female".. Whatever the reason, I don't belong at a women's only event. Sorry you feel this is misogynistic, that wasn't my intent. I am human and can't please everyone with my thoughts or the way I word them.

Thanks for your post and letting me clarify myself..

-Tony

[EnderD_503]

Apparently I need to rep more people before repping you again, but good topic TenderKnight. I've found myself in an unlikely situation that has this subject on my mind a lot lately, though moreso from the perspective of a male id'd butch. Despite that society perceives me as female (albeit a rather masculine one) I've always felt male, and so I find myself unsure what to do when required to enter women only spaces. Others say that such spaces are for all women or all females no matter who they are. To me, I'm none of the above, which is not easily explained in this situation and so I have no "excuse" to give to avoid the requirement. I am doing a lot of good by entering that space, but I still feel like an invader.

I'm still unsure of what to do, or what would be the more honourable choice, but I, for one, am glad this topic is being discussed. Thanks for starting this thread.

[PapaC]

regarding things like big events, advertised events and so on and so forth, if something is advertised as a "Women" or a "lesbian" event, I will not go to that event (well, 100% for sure wouldn't go to that event on my own). It doesn't have to say "women only". But I would attend events that specify 'trans friendly' or 'all genders' but not a specific lesbian event. It's out of respect for women's space and also for my own personal comfort level. Fact is, most generic lesbians/lesbian spaces wouldn't 'get' the whole ID thing.

As for Queer spaces, that's a no brainer as I'll always ID as queer, feel queer, and therefore belong in 'queer' space, whether I look like a straight male or not.

my .02

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

My points in this thread are these..

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

I look forward to seeing how this thread spins out.. I truely hope that it is read as I intend and not as a bash or a rehash of other topics.

Thank you,
Tony

1. I think it depends where One is. On a personal level, no. But I also think just because One claims a male ID, it doesn't mean society is going to accept that fact. I think at some point, One DOES have to move out of women's space, otherwise, it's just kind of disrespectful.

2. Give it to them? I don't quite understand the question. If you're speaking in a general sense, like...say...if it's a women-only event, I really have no purpose being there. If you're speaking in a different sense, like Mahhh Woman is going out for Femme Night or somesuch, I don't think she intends for me to be there, and I don't attend.

3. Yes...while difficult at first...it was really bittersweet


Good Thread Idea,
Dylan

[Daryn]

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

If it is very clearly women's only space, No I have not expectation of being welcome. In the community, I live in there are some events where transmen are welcome into women's events that are not promoted as women's only space and whose publicity in fact state transguys are OK, then I expect it's OK to be there

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

I stay away. I don't need to be in a space where I am not wanted.

For my own reasons, I choose to be male in the body I was born with and to not change my gender legally. However, I don't think I belong at MWMF. My ex used to bug me to go to MI with her and told me that there were women who looked far more butch than I do there. Ouch. She did not see me as I see myself. I still would never go to MI with their current policies.

OTOH, I live in a world that sees my gender as female and that makes life complex. There is a women's network at work that does not exclude men and I sometimes go to their meetings/events.

And given my situation, I don't think I belong in all male space either. So I would not do that. There are times when I want to hang out with my best male friend (should have been my brother) and I don't want his wife around. I think it hurts her feelings but there are times when I want one on one with all kinds of friends without partners/spouses.

Probably the only quasi-questionable thing I have done is attend a yoga class for women (not lesbian space and not CR or political at all). I am older, overweight, and have old injuries and the point of this class was to be a place where it was an easy, low level class with more focus on effort than perfection. There wasn't any talking or real bonding and I went with my former partner so I was not interacting with anyone else for partner poses. Again, she asked me to go. And we were the only queers in class. Since I have not transitioned, no one was uncomfortable.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

I was going through the older threads, and thought this was a good one to come back to, because it's an issue that seems to resurface quite often, causing a great deal of resentment between the trans community and the feminist communities especially.

I absolutely do NOT feel that transmen belong in women's only spaces. Period. You don't get to hang onto your old cards and play them when it's convenient. If a space is designated women only, and you ID as male, you do not need to be there.

And it's easy to show respect to women who want their own space. Stay out of it unless invited in.

And for me personally, no, I did not feel any sense of loss after transition.

I'd love to hear differing opinions...

[julieisafemme]

I hope it is ok for me to post here. Sometimes this issue comes up for us and it bums me out. I will say hey let's go to this and Greyson will say no because it is women's space. I don't even think of things like that because I am a woman. I totally understand and support his comfort level and his need to show respect for spaces where he feels like his presence could be problematic. That is why we really value and like spaces where the only requirement is that you be queer. We can do that!

[SelfMadeMan]

I totally get what you're saying, Stacy and I have been through that too! It comes up all the time in different ways for me. I'm a Sociology/Women & Gender Studies major, and last year, was asked to join a feminist honor society called W.I.L.L. (Women's Initiative for Leadership Learning), and I initially declined. I told the professor who invited me, that I felt my presence would be problematic and that I was honored but would never want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or resent my presence in that space. About a week later, she emailed me and told me that she had met with the society, and that they voted unanimously to invite me in. Not only that, they voted to change the name to Wo/Men's Initiative for Leadership Learning. I was floored. So I joined, with the understanding that if my presence were ever an issue for an incoming member, I would want to bow out, and not take a space away from a woman who wanted to be in the society. It's gone great though, and I LOVE working in and around feminism!

[DMW]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I absolutely do NOT feel that transmen belong in women's only spaces. Period. You don't get to hang onto your old cards and play them when it's convenient. If a space is designated women only, and you ID as male, you do not need to be there.

And it's easy to show respect to women who want their own space. Stay out of it unless invited in.

SelfMadeMan, I completely agree with this sentiment and appreciate that
you posted this so well. If one woman is uncomfortable...then...i am uncomfortable.
The brass tax: It Just comes down to common courtesy and respect. Period.
Don't say one thing and do the other. That is total disrespect.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I totally get what you're saying, Stacy and I have been through that too! It comes up all the time in different ways for me. I'm a Sociology/Women & Gender Studies major, and last year, was asked to join a feminist honor society called W.I.L.L. (Women's Initiative for Leadership Learning), and I initially declined. I told the professor who invited me, that I felt my presence would be problematic and that I was honored but would never want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or resent my presence in that space. About a week later, she emailed me and told me that she had met with the society, and that they voted unanimously to invite me in. Not only that, they voted to change the name to Wo/Men's Initiative for Leadership Learning. I was floored. So I joined, with the understanding that if my presence were ever an issue for an incoming member, I would want to bow out, and not take a space away from a woman who wanted to be in the society. It's gone great though, and I LOVE working in and around feminism!

I think that this is a different situation. It is dependent on the people involved within that space and time. I would feel the same way...and most likely feel it necessary to approach each new female member or have some introductory announcement...that in someway stated, "if any woman has issue with the presence of men in these meetings...come to the director and it will be addressed...etc. So, that the woman would know that her identity would remain anonymous...etc. Kind of a sticky position to put her in though...

So, i, myself would struggle with this. Interesting. Ironic cause i was in a long term relationship with a femme in women's studies. It was awesome to
listen to her and learn from her.

Obviously, they wanted to include you cause they know you well. And that is awesome.


The feelings of loss have happened to me and to the partner i was with during my transition. And i am sure that my partner post transition went through her own evolution, adjustment...etc. However, the loss is probably, not much different from any other person's evolution, really.
It would be much to type and think about. And i have bigger priorities today to attend to.
Personally, regarding my transition, i have gained much more than i have lost.

Great post. Thanks.

Julieisafemme....i appreciate your post and am glad that you are sharing.

You all have a good day.

[alexri]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Greetings

1. Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?

2. How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want their own space?

3. Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?

I am answering from the perspective of someone who identifies as male and considers himself transgendered, but has not physically transitioned, most likely will not, and is in a situation where most of the people in my life do not know or understand that I identify this way. I hope I am not seen as thinking this through too much.

1. If it's an event/space where it's specifically women only and supportive spouses/family members are not invited and/or all are not welcome, then no, I do not feel like I belong there.

I don't belong to women's only/women's themed meetup groups, I don't do women's only/women's themed races anymore, and I do not go to lesbian bars.

And as an aside, one of the controversies I see in events like women's musical festivals, meetup groups, etc. is how you define "women." For example, there are some women's music festivals that will allow in people born as biological females that have transitioned or identify as male, but will not allow in born-males who identify as/transitioned to female. It's a discussion for another time/thread but still important.

2. I stay out of it unless I was invited in to be supportive at an event/fundraiser/etc.

3. Since my transition is mental right now, no hormones/no surgery, I experience both loss and longing. I have a longing to not be automatically seen and treated as female and be addressed as male instead; a longing for friends/family not to use female pronouns with me; a longing for others to understand. I have a loss when I have to show up/be present at certain things as female. Like I hate having to sign up for races in a female category, but realistically I have no choice; I would not be allowed to enter/participate. I hate checking the F box on forms, surveys, etc. Right now it's just something I have to deal with.

[TenderKnight]

Thank you for those that have put thier two cents into this topic..

Even two years later, I will still get suggestions to join women meetings and such when it comes to some of the 12 step programs that I belong to.. I recently moved back to NC where i lived before I began to transition.. My old friends have told me that these meetings "are welcome to lesbians too" ummm.. yeah.. but I'm not a LESBIAN!!! lol..

I still try my best to respect women's space.. Even on the daily, "on the street" level.. Like I don't crowd a woman.. If I see that she is nervous that I am walking behind her at night, I will slow down, or cross the street.. Maybe that is just me? I get that vibe now, that I am seen as a male and a danger. That is kind of hard too.. I don't like people being uncomfy around me just because I'm a guy.. Not even a transguy.. Just a guy..

I'm not saying that all women are afraid of me! lmao.. But maybe this is why I'm still single, because i am sending out creeper vibes? (heh.. not really, I hope..?).

My point is.. I'm aware that a woman walking down the street, alone at night, may not feel comfortable with a guy walking too close behind her.. I have had that fear before.. It isn't a good feeling.. I guess that would be a thought on how I try to respect a woman's space.. Not just at an event, but in general.

Great thoughts, everyone I'm glad to have run across this thread again!

-Tony

[odd_boi_out]

-Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?
No. I feel that it would be disrespectful and appropriative. And even though I don't identify entirely as male, I still live primarily as a man and do not feel like I belong in or should enter into spaces that have been defined as women-only. (For the same reason, I am highly critical of women-only spaces that exclude transgender women.)

-How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?
I don't enter into these spaces.

-Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?
Yes. I fear that my own experience is not a common one, but yeah, I have felt great loss in some ways. While I don't at all regret my decision to transition, and I feel much more comfortable and at-home in my body, I feel a tremendous loss of community, specifically lesbian or queer women's community. I also miss being visibly queer. Strangers and acquaintances no longer recognize me as "family." It's definitely been an adjustment.

[Bad_boi]

Do you still feel like you should be welcomed into women's only space after you own your male ID?
If the women in question want me in their space that is their place to welcome me. For the most part I don't feel comfortable in women's spaces.

How do you try to show respect for the women that need and want thier own space?
Stay out of it

Did you feel a loss of something after a certain point in your transition?
-Some of this may not be PC, but I am being honest here-

I feel like I have lost the LGBT community. My identity is kinda complicated. I am panromantic but only feel comfortable being physically intimate with genderqueers, women some butches and rarely FTMs. So I appear "Straight" for the most part.

In queer spaces I feel kinda left out. I pass so I don't fit in with a lot of other T guys. I feel like I make the jealous and I have been told this before. I also don't like being perceived as a gay male because I am not.

I also tend to offend people in queer spaces because I come off as a staight cismale and I try to be PC but sometimes I fall short which becomes a shit storm of angry people all tag teaming me while I try to explain. I understand that people are angry and hurt when it comes to some topics but becoming angry at a person who is willing to listen and learn is really stupid. If I made a mistake yelling and throwing a rage fit at me instead of politely correcting me is not going to make me want to be in queer space or fight along side for a cause. It makes me want to ignore and walk away. I am generally nice and try to use the right terms but sometimes I stumble over words. It is like walking on eggshells. I am even dreading going to pride because I don't feel welcome.

It is sad to lose what you think is going to be your biggest support and your "family".