The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.

i agree.

he is not getting a pass.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

[Apocalipstic]

Snow, in all respect and friendship...I do think that of someone crosses our boundaries 10000 times on this website (or anywhere) please put them on ignore and/or avoid them, walk away. The person who crosses your boundaries may bring joy and light to other people even though you might have a bad history with them. Some personalities just clash. It is unavoidable. Again, nothing against you or anyone.

There are some good , well meaning people who make really bad social errors. I do sometimes. You have witnessed some of them. Somehow people mostly seem to forgive me thank goodness.

It is personally devastating when I make these errors. I think it does anyone who makes these types of errors we work so had to avoid. Sometimes we try so hard, it makes the errors worse.

Adele, I have and will continue to treat you as an equal, there is no question for me on that subject and never has been. I don't pity you, you don't pity me. I think this is a great thread.

On the subject of rules, we have them and they should be followed. Can we have empathy for people and explain over and over the rules? Yes! Which is why I am glad the Admins and Mods go with a taking time off thing, rather than an outright ban most of the time.

So rules yes, ignore button yes, empathy yes.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by adorable

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

Yes yes yes!

Intent matters!

PS, well it matters to me, there are schools of thought where only results matter....philosophy, morals and ethics discussion....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

There are so many things in life we should not have to deal with, yet we do. I wish we did not have to.

No, you should not have to ever deal with anyone crossing your boundaries, and no you should not have to put anyone on ignore, but think of the blissful peace never having to think of that person ever again. Poof, they can dissapear to you.

I agree that no one's place should be above anyone else's and I am sad that you think that is what I am suggesting.

I also agree that rules are rules, however, I do think intent matters and compassion matters and I know that some people will not get along and it is best if they do not interact. NT or not. Actually everyone is somewhere on the neurological spectrum, I am not assuming anything about where you are ...but if someone causes this much distress it really helps peace of mind to ignore them. I have had to make that very difficult decision for myself and its been good for me.

Please know that I am saying this from my heart. It is very difficult for me to have this discussion and I totaly understand why you feel like you do and not saying you don't deserve to feel that way.

[violaine]

apocalipstic, social blunders/awkwardness/abruptness is what i am !

when i signed up here, it was as an 'individual' not 'we/us/everyone'.

i struggle with being lumped into a category, as someone who made an assumption. if i dislike assumptions made about me, i'm sure going to try my hardest not to make them about others.

majority = best part. all = the entire.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

Lady Snow,
I'm quoting you so that I can reference this comment and add to it
I totally understand where you are coming from. For for months I failed to put someone on ignore who had crosed many boundaries with me, In my world we keep our enemies close so to speak, I tried to handle it on my own and then with the aid of a friend, this person continued to cross boundaries and passes were given to this NT person. The bottom line is I too don't use the ignore feature for the simple reason I want to know when there is an issue with said person. Not only until it crossed over to my r/t life and a threat was made did it stop. So clearly how far can one be pushed before enough is enough.

[Spirit Dancer]

I've read this entire thread and some things are clear, others are not.
Some of you may or may not know my child is an aspie.
In our home she is treated no different than any other child, I do not let her stand on the premise that since she is anspi or has a cognitive issues she will or cannot make it in the real world.
She's encouraged to be all she can be, she isn't issued passes for thinking differently. We live in a real world with real issues, and we are teaching her to adapt to such circumstances, is it different and challenging yes it is. Are we going to tell her to chump out hell no, the fact is we can learn and grow from differences or walk away. We want her to learn the NT world, and live to the best or her ability, are we afraid she won't be able to conform, yes. But at least we are giving her the advantage of refoucusing and learning outside her box, after all each disability does just that.

[christie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

Snow -

I'm not sure that my perception is that this thread is about you. I think you opened the door for direct comments to you when you posed the question of "what do you do?"

If no one responded to your question, I am sure that you would also feel dismissed. I know I would.

I am interested to know, what do you think we should do in the instance you posed?

It feels as if when your question was responded to, you negated the ignore suggestion (as is your right to do so) and didn't respond to my suggestion of a buddy/mentoring system at all.

This feels, to me, like with a lot of the heavier issues, its easier for us to focus on the problem rather than look for solutions. That statement is not directed soley at you, but a general observation from my "me" place. I really hope you don't choose to hone in on this statement and negate the rest of my post.

I think that the allowances we make for DA's can also be viewed as we do the "isms". To say to a DA person, "Here is the TOS, its up to you to abide by the rules" is fair. Its treating everyone equally. The sticky part, for me, is when we (as community members) say to a DA person, "You fucked up and didn't follow the rules and its up to you to do the work to fucking figure it out"

(which, please don't anyone assume is what I believe happens since we know that the mods and administration spend hours "behind the scenes" in trying to work through issues).

The sticky part? We want to call it out and treat the DA as an equal yet expect the moderators and admin to assist the person in doing the work. I think just as with whites and privilege, the NT's, as the majority, have to be willing to assist in that process.

When we call out white privilege - we expect the offender to do the work. Hopefully, they have the capacity and resources to do the work.

I believe, based on my experiences, that DA's who continue to make social blunders, cross boundaries, break the rules, etc don't have the social skills/cognitive function/self monitoring/filters in place to do the work without assistance from the NT majority.

This is not assuming that you are an NT.

This is not me saying that a DA person is more valued in this community, at least in my perception, than any one else.

This is me saying that I am hopeful that when you feel you have exhausted your patience and empathy, that there is a system in place to step in.

I believe that a person has to have the skills/cognitive processes or the resources available to overcome some of the DA issues.

What I really don't want to happen is the lack of skills/processes not being taken into account and addressed and "just follow the rules and subsequent consequences" and that DA person feeling discarded and unvalued.

I just don't want us to throw anyone, DA, nonDA, NT, non NT, away just as I don't want that person to feel thrown away.

I really hope that I made sense in this post. I had to leave it and come back several times (stupid work) and I am not sure that I was as cohesive as I would have liked.

I also really hope that you will read my intent as one of support and community and not anything else.

[julieisafemme]

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.

Originally Posted by adorable

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

[BullDog]

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.

[Daywalker]

I wanna share this video with everyone:



What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.



I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

[christie]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I wanna share this video with everyone:



What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.



I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

Thanks, Daywalker, for posting this. I also posted it on the neurodiversity thread and have slammed my coworkers and friends with emails with a link to it. This young man and the grace he exhibits not just in his words but also in this really amazing ability (I'd never even heard of indoor kite flying!).

[adorable]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.

[julieisafemme]

I think we are agreeing! At least that is how I am reading it. I think I am uncomfortable with the concept of capacity or ability. Because there are capacities within capacities within capacities! Often a capacity to understand also has to do with education and familiarity with the subject matter and ways of discourse.

Just an FYI this is what you wrote "With mental illness there is no choice to be made." That is what I was directly responding to.

Thank you for the conversation!

Originally Posted by adorable

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.

Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).

I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

[weatherboi]

hi everybody!!!

from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense.

i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present.

It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this???

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it.


so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole.

so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes??

so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass???

how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length.

i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was.

social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.

Grant

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by adorable

I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

Snow has said many things, exactly what part are you talking about?

If someone here is threatening her or her family in real time family I am 100% in accordance that they should be kicked off the website. Hell, show me where they are and I personally will call the police and/or run over them in my car. Period.

If I appear to be saying something else, my apologies!!! I do not think anyone should put themselves in danger. I thought we were discussing maybe spending a little extra time learning about how people who are differently able communicate or avoiding people who stress us out. I am NOT saying she should place herself or her children in danger. Please!

What I am saying is that if someone with a disability bugs you, you can press the ignore button or try to understand their way of communication instead of discounting them as human.

I agree with her that rules are rules and should be followed. And if she is in danger I stand beside her in friendship to help protect her and her family.

I thought we were arguing approach. Tough Love vs. extra leeway, so I am completely lost now.