Being female within Butch

[RockOn]

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

[Celtglen]

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.

[Ascot]

The image of a little one trying to flush a pattern down the toilet is a funny one. While I didn't go that far, I seem to recall throwing a few pairs of tights out the window. They were definitely the bane of my existence for a couple of years.

For the most part I was pretty fortunate in that my parents acknowledged my tomboyishness even when it came to occasions that dictated dressier clothes. I still had to wear girl things, but not girly things.


Celtglen, do you think that's what it is, that kids understand gender now more than in decades past?

[randrum]

I hated dresses growing up. Actually, I still hate dresses but as an adult I can choose not to where them. As a kid, however, I didn't have that choice. I'd have a fit whenever my parents made me wear a dress. It got so bad that in 4th grade my parents enforced my own "dress code", or should I say my own personal hell.

Twice a week I had to wear a dress to school. It was terrible, or at least it was for me. I started packing basketball shorts in my backpack to wear under the dresses. And I'd come home with grass stains on them. Eventually my parents just sort of gave up.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Celtglen

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.

I dont know that kids understand it better. People have been reaping the benefits from what was started with the womens movement in the 60's and 70's for over 50 years now.

The movement was about breaking free from the stereotypes of and the societal expectations of what it meant to be a female. As a result, females/women were empowered to redefine life for themselves. It affected everything - clothing choices, career choices, reproductive choices, sexual choices, how to express femaleness, etc.

Each successive generation has added to what was started a long time ago.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Celtglen

Kids seem like they better understand gender than we did in the 50s and 60s--etc.

There's far more exposure to different gender and sex presentations nowadays. Kids are so open and accepting until adults tell them differently.

[Ascot]

The other day i had a lunch meeting with my boss and was pleasantly surprised when he told me that he learns a lot from me. It is not unusual for us to talk politics, art, gender issues, etc. He said that by conversing with me, he has come to have a better understanding of and apprecitation for the relationship dynamics of his lesbian niece and her wife. I think I am the only Butch he's had so much access to, and I applaud him for taking the opportunity to pose the questions he does. He's come a long way for being a self avowed "older white guy who is politically moderate/conservative and kind of churchy." He also gets a kick out of my crisp white shirts (thanks Mom for teaching me you can never go wrong with one) and tells me I'm very Bostonian.

[cathexis]

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

I pluck not shave. I used to wax but not anymore cuz my thyroid is wreaking havoc on my hair. As of now I wouldn't let it grow, for the fear of either having to defended or going on the defense.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by RockOn

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

Those sound like wonderful sox, i'll wear them with camoflage pants, black t-shirt and olive drab hoodie. Can keep the dress and patent leathers though.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Need a little advice, please.
Have facial hair (light red chin, moustache, and side burns), just moved to a small closeted town in the NY North Country, and not the tallest womon on Earth (4'10"). Am usually not able to project tons of confidence (tend to walk more like prey).
After the backstory, would you feel comfortable letting your facial hair grow out in this situation?
Lover is one of THOSE fabulous Alpha Butches that light up a room with their energy when entering, but don't want Her feeling obligated to defend me...She would!

In my experience getting harassed for looking butch/masculine female is totally random. Some places where I would think I would I haven't, and other so-called liberal places I have.

I do have a mustache and the only time I have been directly harassed for that was in Los Angeles. I have mostly lived in liberal places but have also lived in Tennessee and now in a very small town in New Mexico and haven't experienced any problems. So for me, it seems totally random.

For me, if I got rid of my mustache I would still look butch so I don't think it would make me any safer from attacks. Facial hair on a female might freak some people out more but I would think in most cases it wouldn't make a big difference if you already look like a masculine female to begin with.

In really small towns (population of 800 people where I am at), people don't really have much room to hide if they are rude to someone. You are going to see the same people at the post office, the gas station, the convenience store over and over again, and I do find most people friendly.

I would say get a feel for the town and think about how much it means to you. I personally like having my mustache and don't plan to get rid of it, but if I was constantly getting harassed or felt uncomfortable I would consider it.

[Ascot]

I don't have any experience shaving facial hair, but by all accounts, it seems to make it more noticeable, particularly when it's growing out again. If downplaying its visibility is the concern, maybe bleaching it is a viable option? I joke about having a bit of a 'stache, but it's soft and light in color.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by BullDog

In my experience getting harassed for looking butch/masculine female is totally random. Some places where I would think I would I haven't, and other so-called liberal places I have.

I do have a mustache and the only time I have been directly harassed for that was in Los Angeles. I have mostly lived in liberal places but have also lived in Tennessee and now in a very small town in New Mexico and haven't experienced any problems. So for me, it seems totally random.

For me, if I got rid of my mustache I would still look butch so I don't think it would make me any safer from attacks. Facial hair on a female might freak some people out more but I would think in most cases it wouldn't make a big difference if you already look like a masculine female to begin with.

In really small towns (population of 800 people where I am at), people don't really have much room to hide if they are rude to someone. You are going to see the same people at the post office, the gas station, the convenience store over and over again, and I do find most people friendly.

I would say get a feel for the town and think about how much it means to you. I personally like having my mustache and don't plan to get rid of it, but if I was constantly getting harassed or felt uncomfortable I would consider it.

A hairy update.lol

Chose to leave it be, but as it gets longer i'll trim and shave
areas.

Plan to create a handlebar 'stache if all goes well, and it should

when i talk the new doctor into putting me back on T (was on for several

years - stopped a few years ago with a doc change r/t move).

Thanx to all for advice and encouragement!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^cathexis^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

[BullDog]

Thanks for your hairy update!

Sounds good, especially the handlebar 'stache which is very cool. I hope your new town is treating you well and definitely keep us updated!.

Speaking of small towns and hair, I can't wait to go visit my friend in Albuquerque so I can get my haircut. We don't have much in the way of barbers here. Thank goodness for ball caps because I am really shaggy right now!

Originally Posted by cathexis

A hairy update.lol

Chose to leave it be, but as it gets longer i'll trim and shave
areas.

Plan to create a handlebar 'stache if all goes well, and it should

when i talk the new doctor into putting me back on T (was on for several

years - stopped a few years ago with a doc change r/t move).

Thanx to all for advice and encouragement!!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^cathexis^^^^^^^^^ ^^^

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks for your hairy update!

Sounds good, especially the handlebar 'stache which is very cool. I hope your new town is treating you well and definitely keep us updated!.

Speaking of small towns and hair, I can't wait to go visit my friend in Albuquerque so I can get my haircut. We don't have much in the way of barbers here. Thank goodness for ball caps because I am really shaggy right now!

Lived in New Mexico total of about 15 years of which 10 were in Albuq. Love

that city...looking West to Mt. Taylor...East to the Sandias...North, the

Sangria de Christos. Such beauty...low humidity...hot springs.

Will return in the next couple years.

Agree about small towns and haircuts, went to a unisex cutter 3 weeks ago.

Clueless about what i wanted, she said "you DON'T want something

feminine??!!!!! She said this as the clippers were gracing the sideburns.

Stood up shouting "AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH" 'bout causing the clippers

to fall to the floor. No, no sideburns or nape of neck!

Maybe i'll invest in a trip to NYC for grooming...a bit traumatized so i get it

TOTALLY.

[Ascot]

I read an interesting article the other day, written by a gay man who identifies as Femme. I confess, even as my gender is Butch, I've never really given much thought to what it must be like on the other side. As many have stated in this thread and elsewhere, it can be tough being a masculine of center female out and about in the world. Still, I think for the most part, it is easier to be a masculinely presenting woman than it is a femininely presenting man. That's fucked up. It is yet another vile example of how things female/feminine/girly/whatever other adjective you want to insert are devalued because of their inherent nature. This might not even be really the right place for it, but it has been on my mind so I'm putting it out there.

[Mel C.]

Not sure how I've missed this thread but I'll have to read from the beginning when I have more time. For now, I'll say that I consider myself a woman-identified butch. My clothes and personal care products are mostly "men's." I hate buying anything feminine, but acknowledge that I am female. I am okay (and maybe even like a little) being referred to as he or hy within the butch-femme community, but it irks me when a straight person refers to me as sir. I especially hate the "sir, I mean ma'am." Aargh...being female within butch is complicated.

[Ascot]

Contextually, I very much enjoy being called Sir. And, anymore, I get a kick out of seeing someone discomfited by having called me sir and then realizing I'm a woman. But I'm a sadist, so…

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I think for the most part, it is easier to be a masculinely presenting woman than it is a femininely presenting man.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Who can really measure such things. I know that feminine men are despised. I know that masculine women are despised. I think if we are talking "for the most part" masculine women are persona non grata. You can find much loved feminine male characters on TV or in the movies. Not so much for masculine women. I can't think of one really. Lesbian sure, but a masculine woman? Never seen it happen (with one exception being perhaps Lea Delaria.) Masculinity is heavily policed so masculine women are not easily tolerated. I'm not saying feminine men have it easy. I am just responding to the idea that feminine men have a more difficult time with society as a whole/in general than masculine women. Check the earning potential of a feminine man next to a masculine woman. At then end of the day, a butch woman is still a woman and is valued by a patriarchal society accordingly. And a woman seen as trying to break into the masculinity club (even though that is not what butch is about, it is just how it is interpreted by a binary gender obsessed society,) is about as welcome as a woman trying to get ahead in a field protected by the old boys club or even the young boys club (see gamergate).