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Old 09-22-2010, 11:54 AM   #1
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Default Forgiveness

What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:09 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Nat View Post
What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

What a timely thread! This is the season of forgiveness for Jews. Last Saturday we all packed into a tiny sanctuary and beat our chests and said the prayers taking repsonsibility for all the things we have done over the past year. Jews don't believe that G-d can forgive you for a wrong done to another human being. The process of forgiving another human being is called teshuvah. It means repentance. It also means turning and returning. So Jews go through the process of shedding this life and on Yom Kippur are "dead" and waiting to be reborn fresh for the new year and be g'mar hatimah tovah or sealed for good in the book of life. There are all sorts of rules that govern teshuvah during the Yamim Nora'im.

The process starts in the month of Elul preceding the holidays. The first holiday is Selichot which means sorry in Hebrew. You come to synagogue late and say a lot of prayers to prepare yourself for the month of introspection.

Jews do not believe that every wrong must be forgiven or that it is even advisable in some cases. There is an excellent book by Simon Wisenthal called the Sunflower. It is about forgiveness and brings up some really challenging questions. I encourage anyone interested in forgiveness to read it.

Forgiveness feels good to me sometimes and sometimes not. It all depends on the intention behind it. On Yom Kippur a congregant gave a drash (teaching) on forgiveness and asked everyone around her what they thought. She got some really interesting answers. One was that forgiveness is a manipulative act only for the person who has wronged. I don't agree with that. Interestingly enough this came from a teenager! Maybe it is a developmental thing? To reach an understanding of it.

As always Nat a very interesting thread.

Here is a question...is it necessary to believe in G-d to want to or seek forgiveness? I ask this because it was brought up as the notion of a punitive G-d is all that motivates humans to seek forgiveness. I don't believe this. Just curious.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by julieisafemme View Post
What a timely thread! This is the season of forgiveness for Jews. Last Saturday we all packed into a tiny sanctuary and beat our chests and said the prayers taking repsonsibility for all the things we have done over the past year. Jews don't believe that G-d can forgive you for a wrong done to another human being. The process of forgiving another human being is called teshuvah. It means repentance. It also means turning and returning. So Jews go through the process of shedding this life and on Yom Kippur are "dead" and waiting to be reborn fresh for the new year and be g'mar hatimah tovah or sealed for good in the book of life. There are all sorts of rules that govern teshuvah during the Yamim Nora'im.

The process starts in the month of Elul preceding the holidays. The first holiday is Selichot which means sorry in Hebrew. You come to synagogue late and say a lot of prayers to prepare yourself for the month of introspection.

Jews do not believe that every wrong must be forgiven or that it is even advisable in some cases. There is an excellent book by Simon Wisenthal called the Sunflower. It is about forgiveness and brings up some really challenging questions. I encourage anyone interested in forgiveness to read it.

Forgiveness feels good to me sometimes and sometimes not. It all depends on the intention behind it. On Yom Kippur a congregant gave a drash (teaching) on forgiveness and asked everyone around her what they thought. She got some really interesting answers. One was that forgiveness is a manipulative act only for the person who has wronged. I don't agree with that. Interestingly enough this came from a teenager! Maybe it is a developmental thing? To reach an understanding of it.

As always Nat a very interesting thread.

Here is a question...is it necessary to believe in G-d to want to or seek forgiveness? I ask this because it was brought up as the notion of a punitive G-d is all that motivates humans to seek forgiveness. I don't believe this. Just curious.
What a good explanation of forgiveness at tis the season!! WE should all forgive!!

Great thread Nat!!
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:32 PM   #4
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I have a hard time forgiving myself more than anyone else. Forgiving myself for making mistakes or hurting people or acting out in anger.

I, also, believe some things are unforgivable...and no amount of my Jewish/Catholic guilt will make them go away. When someone deliberately lies, uses me, my body or my friends to cause me hurt and pain, I have a difficult time forgiving. Not that it isn't possible, it is just hard.

Sometimes I think the Judeo/Christian understanding of forgiveness is more hurtful than helpful. Turning the other cheek is not always healing. Those who preach peace/understanding may use it as a weapon of guilt and shame to force change. No change that is not self motivated works for very long.

I think this is what Julie was talking about in manipulative action. I get very tired sometimes when well meaning friends say, "Oh just get over it." when they have no understanding of the pain involved or the amount of deception and the reasons behind why someone one is not forgiven.

Being a survivor of childhood abuse I have some deeply unforgivable actions perpetrated against me. The hurt does not go away. It is written in permanent ink on my heart. Some things are not forgivable.

This is one of my most vulnerable areas. How do I let go and move on when I am incapable (at this moment) of forgiving? Does having to forgive someone mean I have not healed? Am I a horrid person because I have not forgotten how humiliated and abused I felt? I struggle with this as one of my biggest personal growth issues.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:44 PM   #5
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Julie...thank you for the information about your religion. Whenever I have learned about Jewish faith, I find a distinct pull to it, totally different than I feel toward Christianity. I feel so at home in Judaism. Comfortable. As I read about shedding of skin and renewal and even more so, about forgiveness and how not everything should be forgiven, I felt the pull even more. I do not believe everything needs forgiven. I think we need to learn from everything and can move on from it but no,not everything needs or deserves a clean wash. And yet, is that what forgiveness is? I think thats what I have been taught and yet i dont buy into it. Perhaps thats why I like the concept that not everything deserves or needs forgiveness.

I have done some wrongs in life that do not deserve forgiveness. Nothing horrid like murder....shaking my head....but there are many ways to kill parts of people. I am a recovering alcoholic and I have done things that while I ask for ammends for, do not ever expect forgiveness of. Most of these were perpetrated on my daughter. SHe has been in al anon and while we love each other powerfully, we are so both affected by my disease. She says she forgives me but you know what? I hope she doesnt. I hope she keeps it close to her breast, along with her love for me, and combines them, so she can walk beside me. I think thats the only way she can trust me, is to never forget and never forgive. It doesnt mean she should not love me. It does mean nothing can undo what I did. But we do not live in the past so the past should only be there as a reminder.

When I relapsed Nov of 2007, she was shattered. She was nowhere near me geographically but it was as tho I had done this as surely as if I was standing right next to her. I drew a sword and with each drink, shoved it inside her. Does that need forgiven?

Forgiven is not the word that catches everything we need to do spiritually in the world of ammends. The only forgiveness I seek, is with myself, for the pain I brought forth on all those part of me. I learned from it and take great measures to not relapse again. Certainly for me but oh yes, for those my every move in life affects.

I love my AA but I feel a responsibility beyond myself. They say we should only get sober for ourselves. True on some levels but on many others, not completely true. My sobriety is my true act of repentance, and ammends making, to my daughter.

And no, I am not beating myself up over relapsing. I am actually very very glad I relapsed. It broke what needed to be finally completely broken so I could snap out of denial and heal the right way. But it came at a cost. And it wasnt just I who paid it. For this, I am accountable for. Thats all...

well...this is my personal history with forgiveness
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:47 PM   #6
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I used to have a much harder time forgiving. I would like to think I am much better at it now than ever before, but I"m not entirely sure that's true. I tend to easily forgive the small things, and the sometimes not so small stuff.
For me forgiveness is given in levels. How much preknowledge someone had about the hurt they were going to cause plays a big part in that. Even if they were well aware, I can forgive depending on how bad it was, and who the pain was inflicted on. I have a very low tolerance for pain inflicted on my children. I can forgive the small stuff usually, but if you cause them undue pain and heartache, that's where I draw the line. I can also forgive alot of things done to me personally, if the person really wasnt aware of the outcome. If you intentionally hurt me however then I"m done. I know myself much better now then I did say 10 yrs ago, and will not say I can forgive someone, when I know that in the long run I cannot. Also, for me there is a big difference in forgiveness, and second chances. I may not completely forgive you , but give you a second chance. Also, I have this little hang up about forgivness..you have to appologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way".
That's not an appology. That is putting it on my doorstep. That's not an "I'm sorry I did this thing, I was wrong". Big difference for me. Also, just because I forgive you , does not mean that I will forget it. It will stay in my mind forever most likely. It will also take me some time to get over it, and not feel gun shy with you, and please do not try to put a time limit on how long it should take . You arent me.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:51 PM   #7
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I used to have a much harder time forgiving. I would like to think I am much better at it now than ever before, but I"m not entirely sure that's true. I tend to easily forgive the small things, and the sometimes not so small stuff.
For me forgiveness is given in levels. How much preknowledge someone had about the hurt they were going to cause plays a big part in that. Even if they were well aware, I can forgive depending on how bad it was, and who the pain was inflicted on. I have a very low tolerance for pain inflicted on my children. I can forgive the small stuff usually, but if you cause them undue pain and heartache, that's where I draw the line. I can also forgive alot of things done to me personally, if the person really wasnt aware of the outcome. If you intentionally hurt me however then I"m done. I know myself much better now then I did say 10 yrs ago, and will not say I can forgive someone, when I know that in the long run I cannot. Also, for me there is a big difference in forgiveness, and second chances. I may not completely forgive you , but give you a second chance. Also, I have this little hang up about forgivness..you have to appologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way".
That's not an appology. That is putting it on my doorstep. That's not an "I'm sorry I did this thing, I was wrong". Big difference for me.
Also, just because I forgive you , does not mean that I will forget it. It will stay in my mind forever most likely. It will also take me some time to get over it, and not feel gun shy with you, and please do not try to put a time limit on how long it should take . You arent me.
Excellent point in the bolded above.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat View Post
1. What are your thoughts on forgiveness?
2. What does forgiveness mean to you?
3. What does it feel like to you?
4. Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness?
5. Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option?
6. Do you forgive frequently or rarely?
7. Do you forgive yourself?
8. Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret?
9. If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness?
10. Any other thoughts on forgiveness?

What a great, thought~provoking thread.....thank You, Nat.....

I'm just going to start by answering Your questions:

1. If I answer the other questions first, then You'll know what my thoughts are about forgiveness....

2. Forgiveness means (to me) a letting go of a wrong done to You (or someone You love. In my opinion, You can't say to someone (or in Your mind), "I forgive You, BUT...." That is not forgiveness if You must qualify it, anymore than someone saying, "I don't mean to be rude, BUT...." Well of COURSE they mean to be rude or they wouldn't have said it. Why can't we just say ~ outloud or to Yourself ~ "I forgive You." and let it stand?

3. Forgiveness feels like a big relief....a heavy weight lifted off of my heart. And the heaviness is caused (for me) by NOT forgiving. Sometimes, I cannot forgive right away. I know in my heart when I just cannot stand being tired from carryin' that weight around with me any longer.

4. Rituals? Not really....for me, it just happens when it happens.

5. Tough question!!!! For me, to NOT forgive~when I feel it is required of me by my Higher Power~is wrong. But that doesn't mean that I DO forgive always. It's very rare that I don't forgive, but I can think of 2 instances right now where I have not.....and it's not because I haven't tried. And having admitted that now is bringing tears to my eyes.

6. I forgive frequently. And I really do forget about it. I was blessed with that forgetful gene....which, in some cases, is VERY frustrating ~ to me and those who love/care for me. I will remember more things where *I* need to be forgiven more than the other way around.

7. Another good question......I'm better now at forgiving myself than I used to be. But then, I'm 57. I think aging has something to do with that. <smile> And for that, I am grateful to have finally learned that lesson!

8. I have...and I will continue to do so should I do something I regret. We are ~ after all ~ only human.

9. I do have a child......she has seen me forgive HER over and over and it has not marred my unconditional love for her ~ and she knows it....and I believe the best lesson I can teach her about forgiveness is for her to see it in action. I have also expressed to her how much energy it takes to NOT forgive....

10. The only thing I have to say is I feel it has become too cliche` for us to say "I forgive, but I don't forget," when , again to me personally, it seems that forgiveness is all about forgetting the offense. Let it go as quickly as You can. Too much energy, I'm tellin' Ya!

Again....in a perfect world, I would be able to practice what I 'preach'....and I do not always. But I do forgive most of the time. And most of the time, I do forget as well.....and I hope I am forgiven when I offend.


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Old 09-22-2010, 01:25 PM   #9
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Although, unlike Diva, I do not forget or forgive easily, I try hard not to feel guilty about it because in some ways it has fueled my activism in anti-violence, domestic violence and sexual assault survivor work.

Irish said:
"Also, I have this little hang up about forgiveness..you have to apologize and actually mean it. To me, that means not repeating the same behavior. And please, do not try to coddle me with an " I"m sorry you were hurt by ..." or.." I"m sorry you took it that way". That's not an apology. That is putting it on my doorstep."

I have sought and sincerely apologized for the behavior I was truly sorry for committing. I will not seek it for what I am not sorry for...like everyone said it would not be sincere and that is also hard to forgive. I remember one apology I got was a cell phone message that basically said "My Mistress said I should apologize to you." *laughs* Not even an apology.

I also would add to it "You really should not take it personally." Huh? Um, how ever should I take it? It is personal, everything is personal. I was hurt! I was lied to and about! I was beat! I was made to look crazy! It was very personal.

Again, this is one of my most vulnerable spots. One I constantly work on... *le sigh*
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:26 PM   #10
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These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Nat View Post
These are some really wonderful posts and I'm so excited so far to read them. (I bet there will be more before I get to post this too).

I think maybe forgiveness is one of those words where many people have different definitions and experiences, so I really deeply appreciate the specificity of these posts.

I grew up in a world with a father who brought mountains of pain to me and my family. I grew up in a world with a mother who never seemed to forgive me for any slight misstep. And in that scenario, when I say she didn't forgive me, it means that she held onto resentment for things I'd done from a very young age, that she held onto her anger, that she acted like a put-upon martyr where I was cause of her distress. Though she managed her anger well, it was palpable and though she would eventually let things drop, she never really let go of the anger - it just seemed to go down to a simmer until the next time she thought to bring it up. She never said things like, "don't worry about it, I know you didn't mean to do such-and-such" or things like that. She would just turn to stone toward me and offer me no comfort, understanding or acceptance - or even just a marker of "let's put all that behind us now and start afresh." Believe it or not, I was a very well-behaved kid to begin with. I feel bad saying all that because I truly adore my mom and think she was and is a great mom in a whole lot of ways. She was a single mom, struggling with little help, and she was younger than I am now when she did most of that stuff. Over the years, I think she's gotten way better at this stuff - I do feel that she forgives me now for my flaws and mistakes. I think probably she's forgiven me for most of my childhood missteps too - she just never let me know.

Anyway, all that and I've never been sure what exactly forgiveness is supposed to be. When I was younger and probably still to this day, I tended to excuse people rather than forgive them. I would try to understand what their experiences were, why they behaved the way they did, and then just excuse their behavior as part of their personality or programming. *

I didn't know what forgiveness even was, and I'm not sure I do now either. I think about it kind of a lot, but without a really good model for it, it's mainly guesswork.

I have heard that not forgiving a person really hurts you more than the other person, and I think that's true. *There's this meditation that I do, where I imagine the people I'm upset with dissolving into light. It feels like just letting go. Is that forgiveness?

I think maybe forgiveness is a combination of accepting the past and just letting go of anger and resentment. I think of it as a self-healing thing, but I also think there are times when it really can help another person move on to let them know you have forgiven them. *There are some people, however, that although I may forgive them, I would no more invite them back into my life than have a picnic on a fire ant mound. I don't think forgiveness has to mean re-inclusion into one's life if a person has patterns of toxicity and damage. I am grateful to those who have forgiven me for the times when I have erred and for the times when my toxicity levels were at their highest. I think also for big things, forgiveness is a long process. *When I do this meditation, sometimes the same people show up over and over again. And I just try to let go of the resentment all over again.

I tend to be harshest on myself - I find it the most difficult to let go of my own resentments toward myself over past actions and inactions. I'm trying to get better with that. I'm trying to get to a place where I accept all people - including me - are human and we all make mistakes sometimes. I think just accepting a certain amount of leeway in human behavior probably helps. And maybe part of what helps me let go of resentments is knowing how comforting it would be to know that those who hold resentments toward me might do the same. I'm not talking about quid pro quo but more like the golden rule.

As far as religion goes, I think a lot of religions do encourage forgiveness, and there may be a spiritual element in it for those of faith, but forgiveness is probably pretty useful sociologically in order to maintain diplomatic group relationships and I think it's probably pretty helpful psychologically for oneself.

A note on what forgiveness isn't: I don't think forgiveness means what happened was okay or right. I don't think it means you have to remove a necessary boundary between you and another person - unless you decide you want to remove the boundary and you no longer find it necessary. I don't think it means that damage didn't occur. I don't think you have to tell another person you've forgiven them if doing so would re-establish connections you don't want to re-establish. *I think it's just one of those things that makes life a little more livable inside one's own existence.

I say all that, but I'm still not sure what forgiveness really means or feels like to other people. I'm really enjoying the other responses here because I feel like there may be opportunity for me to better understand what it is for everybody else.
You have brought up a lot of good points here. Asking for forgiveness to me is taking responsibility and letting someone know I was responsible. Giving forgiveness does not mean I have to interact with that person at all. With those I love I am very forgiving. There is an endless supply of love. To forgive someone means I have to care about them on some level. It does to me mean that I want them in my life. Appropriate boundaries are so important as you mentioned. Just because you forgive someone does not mean that you have to bring them close again. Sometimes people don't understand that.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:39 PM   #12
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Forgiveness,this is a hard one,on one hand a good thing to do but harder to do at times.I can forgive a lot of ppl for things cause u cant fix the stupid stuff ppl do that they dont thing will harm another..there brains arent wired to realise what they do.Do I foprgive the ex hubby that walked out on me with a 3yrold and me still 8 monts along with the second son to be with his partying trophy wife to be.That one took a loooonnnngg time,not so much for me as for the kids who should have had a dad in there lives and didnt..he didnt have the guts to be a dad so they were beter off.Do I forgive the parrents who abandond me as 18 months to split then move on with there lives married to other ppl raiseing other kids..no child suport from either ever.In my own way I have forgiven but forget, no.For a long time I grunged on all the wrongs I had to deal with and all they did was eat up my soul,give me stress,feeling of worthlessness beacuse of so much crap that I delt with with in my life from ppl who were hell bent to see me beat down.Over the last ten years I have done some soul serching and what ive done is, let it go.Its a heavy weight I dont need to cary,its over,done and in the past.Im a new me.I have learned the lessons well of serveing this life and this wil serve me well the rest of my life.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:48 PM   #13
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On self forgiveness. That is also the hardest for me personally. Even when my head knows I had a reason. Maybe not even a good one, but a legit reason.(to me) Sort of like cause and effect. There was a cause, my action was the effect. I am not equating the cause as an excuse however. That was really hard to differentiate. Still can be. When looking at my own behavior, I try to first figure out the "why". When I figure that out, I can follow the path, and usually see how I allowed myself the behavior. It does not however mean that my behavior was acceptable. It never is. But seeing the "why" helps me not repeat the behavior again. It helps me put a flag on it, so when the "why" comes up again, I can say to myself, ok, here's this situation again, now lets have a different outcome concerning my behavior. It's how I hold myself accountable. There are things in my life that I am ashamed of, most of them done before I turned 18. Even though I was young, and had little knowledge of self, I still dont feel as though I can give myself a pass. I think not forgiving yourself leads to not loving yourself. Yep. and that's as far as it goes for me, I"m not at the self forgiveness stage yet. Therefore, while I love myself as a whole, there are parts that I do not love.
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Old 09-22-2010, 01:51 PM   #14
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Here is a good overview of The Sunflower and the questions it raises.

http://www.ilperetz.org/graduates/daniel_bish.htm
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Old 09-22-2010, 03:00 PM   #15
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What an interesting topic.

I have said for many years that "people are patterns of behavior". If you can see the patterns, you see the person. As such you can identify the steadfast from the wishy washy, the intuned from the oblivious, the anchors from the tide, the rainy day friends from the sunshine only folks etc.

As I have gotten older, this has served me well in choosing people I invite into my life and those I keep at arms length. As such, people tend to disappoint me less, which in turn means I have less need to forgive them as I didnt expect them to do such and such anyway.

Forgiveness tho, for me, is reserved for those rare occasions where the tried and true in my life disappoint me. Some transgressions are easily forgiven and forgotten. Some are not.

For me, forgiveness means I see myself and others as imperfect beings who will make mistakes. There are intentional mistakes and unintentional mistakes. An unintentional mistake will be forgiven meaning I accept an honest apology which recognizes a mistake AND we can move on with a greater understanding and respect for one another. These types of events tend to bring people closer.

Sometimes people dont understand why or how they hurt us or disappointed us. Their willingness to engage in a discussion about something and be open to listening is a huge plus for helping to deepen friendships and relationships.

For me, forgiveness, is a feeling of compassion for myself or another, an understanding which defies words. It is a gut feeling emanating from your soul that touches anothers spirit.

Intentional mistakes are not forgiven or forgotten meaning there will be definate changes in our interactions. Examples of intentional mistakes:

1. cheating on me, a friend of mine, or a member of my family.

2. lying in any way, shape or form. There are no small lies. Lying undermines trust which is the foundation of any type of relationship.

3. deceit in any way, shape or form that may not even involve me personally

4. taking advantage of those unable to protect themselves

These are intentional types of behavior for which there is no acceptable explanation. They are types of behavior which are designed to inflict pain, intentionally, on others. This is not acceptable behavior nor is it forgiveable behavior regardless of the reasons for it. Even if it is not done to me, it colors my perception of the person, and makes me wary of them and their motivations.

Intentional behavior will result in a huge change in our interactions simply because this type of behavior brings strife into my life. Life comes with enough strife without my "pals" bringing me even more.

I always thought I would become more mellow as I aged. I havent found that to be the case. I see myself as more judgemental than I was when I was younger or am I just more discerning? I am less open to new things and ideas or are they just the same things and ideas with a different spin on them? I am more guarded with my time and energy...well that just because there isnt much to spare. Maybe I'm just not old enough yet?

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Old 09-22-2010, 03:22 PM   #16
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Oh, im headin out the door to see the sunset, but I dont want to loose this thread.

*Subscribing*

Fantastic, well timed topic!
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Old 09-22-2010, 03:36 PM   #17
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i believe in and practice forgiveness. i have been forgiven by my friends and family for all the heartache i caused them when i was in the thralls of addiction. i wouldn't be doing so well without their forgiveness. it has taught me how to be forgiving when people in my life commit acts or say things that might offend or cause pain.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:22 PM   #18
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I can and will forgive any action (be it verbal or physical) which has been handed down to me.

In order for me to heal from the assault/action, I must forgive. If I carry the anger/hurt with me, then I will not heal, nor will I be able to shed this emotion from my being. I have been assaulted and without going into the details of my assault -- I needed to forgive my perpetrators in order to heal. People who knew of this, were pretty upset with me, that I would even consider it, to go to that place for them. If I continued the hurt/anger - then I would be a victim. I cannot ever be a victim. This would destroy me internally -- This does not work for all people, but it worked for me and continues to do so.

Forgiving myself... This is a much deeper and more difficult notion for me to conquer. I still carry the pain and sadness, of all the hurt I have created in others. I do not believe the hurt I have caused was intentional and it does not matter for me. What matters, I brought sadness and hurt to another person. For me, I cannot use the "I am human." There is no excuse for me.

Julie... I grew up with an orthodox grandmother and with the traditions and prayers you spoke of. I wish I could go back there sometimes - I have this block which keeps me from going there. I think, I have yet to forgive G-D - perhaps that should be part of my forgiving.

Julie
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:01 PM   #19
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**Disclaimer: I decided not to read the other entries first because I didn't want my initial thoughts and feelings influenced by the always-intriguing entries. So I apologize if any of this is massively repetitive.

Forgiveness of others is imperative for growth (in my opinion). The people I most admire (Dalai Lama, Gandhi, Pema Chodron, wise friends) believe that forgiveness is what allows us to heal, to experience compassion, and to move forward on our path. I totally agree with this.

I have no control over the actions of others. So, why would I cling to what others have done as if this static spinning of my own wheels will somehow change a past event? It does me no good to wrap myself in an unchangeable past by holding a grudge or expecting something out of someone other than myself.

So, forgiveness feels like release. I feels like surrender to things I cannot control which allows me to move towards the things I can control - my own reactions, thoughts, and experiences.

Of course, forgiveness is not always an easy thing to offer and sometimes it takes some soul-searching to get to a place where I'm ready to forgive, but my goal is always forgiveness. I work very hard to let things go as quickly as possible. It only hurts me when I refuse to move on.

I believe everyone, especially myself, is imperfect. Being imperfect means mistakes will be made, feelings will get hurt, actions will occur that cannot be undone. I recognize this on a pretty deep level so I consider myself a very forgiving person.

Self-forgiveness is something else entirely. I'm a little more hard and unforgiving with myself. I expect a little more perfection (sometimes to an unreasonable degree) of myself and it's something I work on overcoming and improving. Patience is a lesson I learn time and again.

If I do hurt someone through careless words or actions, I apologize immediately. It's rare that I actually ask for forgiveness because my apologies are heartfelt and it's completely up to the other person to decide how they'd like to feel about me. Either they accept my very honest admission of fault and the dialog that always ensues or they don't. The forgiveness there is really about whether I can forgive myself for being so careless.

I do worry that people cling to this idea of forgiveness as if it's something that will set them free, as if it's something they need to give away after someone has "earned" it. I'm looking at this through my very tiny lens of the world (so I may read something in the other posts that changes my ideas on this), but forgiveness is rarely about the other person. They may ask for it, and you may grant it, but ultimately the real growth happens inside you when you truly let it go or you don't.

Horribly painful things have been done to me in the past, but I never felt compelled to hold on to it and keep hatred or spite in my heart. Those folks have their own karma to deal with. By letting go and simply removing them from my life (while wishing them compassion), I am able to grow and shed that old self to become someone that is wiser and kinder for it.

Great thread. Very thought-provoking. I'm not sure I said everything the way I intended, but I am off to read everyone else's posts!
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:05 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Nat View Post
What are your thoughts on forgiveness? What does forgiveness mean to you? What does it feel like to you? Do you have methods or rituals of forgiveness? Do you feel there are times when forgiveness is not an option? Do you forgive frequently or rarely? Do you forgive yourself? Do you seek forgiveness for things you regret? If you have kids or have young people in your life, what do/would you teach them about forgiveness? Any other thoughts on forgiveness?
I am not a very forgiving person, either for myself or for others. I give what has been referred to as 'mafia love'...you have to prove your worthy and then you are in for life until you mess up and then you are out like Project Runway.

I rarely do second chances for medium-sized goofs and never for huge ones like cheating, etc.

I think it's a great idea, though, and know that it's helped many people overcome terrible circumstances. I just haven't reached that level of maturity in this life, though.
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